• rdri@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    Do you have any data that shows those deaths of Palestinians in recent decades were a result of unprovoked attacks by Israel?

    Do you think Palestinians can achieve anything good for themselves by starting violence?

    • whoisearth@lemmy.ca
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      1 year ago

      At a certain point it is no longer about “who hit first” but about “who hit last”.

      The biggest issue is the attacks are not proportional. Just like 9/11 what happened in Israel to flare this up again is but a drop in a bucket of years of lived experience of those in Gaza. It doesn’t justify any of it but it does provide important context.

      And fuck Hamas.

      • rdri@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        There can be no context for violence that hamas has shown recently, solely because it was aimed for citizens who did nothing to them. Anyone who doesn’t understand this also has to answer how exactly this helped anyone anywhere, other than accepting that hamas only wanted to kill more Israeli with no meaningful purpose in mind.

        • Killing_Spark@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Right, that’s one way to deal with Terror, ignoring the reasons the terrorists became that way and killing everyone close to them to avoid new terrorists.

          • rdri@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            What reasons? You can’t reason with people who want to kill and create terrorists out of their own citizens. They have the internet so they could at least educate themselves on how history and terrorism work, how they could live fine as is, without resorting to violence. How they will not live fine if they practice terrorism.

            Propose a better way to deal with terrorism, or just accept the reality.

            • Killing_Spark@feddit.de
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              1 year ago

              how they could live fine as is, without resorting to violence. How they will not live fine if they practice terrorism.

              Well that’s quite literally not true. People in Gaza can not “live fine as is” because they are cut off from the whole world, relying on an enemy nation to allow humanitarian aid to be delivered. People in the Westbank aren’t allowed to use their own land because Israel is keeping it occupied and keeps building settlements.

              You can’t reason with people who want to kill and create terrorists out of their own citizens

              This is true, but kinda unrelated to what I said. I said there are reasons people become terrorists. Whether or not you can still reason with them after that point of radicalization is not what I was arguing.

              Propose a better way to deal with terrorism, or just accept the reality.

              “Either solve an unsolvable problem, or accept that bombing civilians is an acceptable solution” isn’t really an argument, it can be turned around to justify the terror the Hamas is spreading: “Propose a better way to deal with the occupation of our land and the killing of our people, or just accept the reality”. It’s just an absurd.

              • rdri@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                People in Gaza can not “live fine as is” because they are cut off from the whole world, relying on an enemy nation to allow humanitarian aid to be delivered.

                Well guess what doing terrorism will bring them? Certainly not getting new connections in the world. If they wanted to do anything positive, they wouldn’t build rockets in the first place.

                I said there are reasons people become terrorists. Whether or not you can still reason with them after that point of radicalization is not what I was arguing.

                The reason being: hamas propaganda. You can’t justify those reasons. They need to be rectified properly. Israel existence is not one of those reasons.

                “Propose a better way to deal with the occupation of our land and the killing of our people, or just accept the reality”.

                Accept all the help from the world you can get, and do the rest yourself. Build infrastructure, hospitals, universities etc., not rockets. Just stop being terrorists and making more terrorists.

    • lennybird@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Depends. How far do you want to go back? The aborigines of Palestine were Arabs. But throughout the 20th century we saw provocation as land was continuously annexed for Israel to the detriment of the local Muslim populations.

      In recent decades, does it matter? If Israel is pretending to play the high ground here, why is everyone feigning complete ignorance to massive civilian collateral damage when they as a non-terrorist state SHOULD be held to a higher standard?

      To that end, do you really think their bombing civilians isn’t going to radicalize the surviving family members…?

      As for Hamas’ goals, I have no idea. But then again, the world is talking about them. Like any toddler for lack of words on the world stage, throwing a tantrum is the only way to get attention.

      • rdri@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Yes, there is no use in looking in the past. What matters is the future. Israel is now trying to secure a safe future for their citizens. On the other hand, I don’t believe hamas had any thought about what would they achieve by starting violence again. So it is hamas who does useless things, not Israel.

        Getting attention by violence doesn’t seem to have worked well for anyone who started it.

        Radicalizing civilians is not something that can be avoided, especially when current hamas propaganda does basically the same thing.

        • ???@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          The future right now is that Israeli forces are committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza. Israel is not at all in any way or capacity trying to secure a safe future for their own citizens and got the Palestinians.

          • rdri@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            What you said here is illogical.

            1. If ethic cleansing is what’s happening right now, then why exactly was it not done before? Nobody would’ve stopped them anyway. If they really wanted it, that is.

            2. Hamas did not at all in any way or capacity try to secure a safe future for Palestinians by killing 1000 people in Israel.

            3. Leaving terrorists as is will guarantee more terrorism.

            • ???@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago
              1. Israel did this every day for decades
              2. No, they didn’t, I agree
              3. Exactly. And Israel is a terrorist state.
              • rdri@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago
                1. Not seeing it. If it’s done for decades why does Palestinians population growing?
                2. See 1.
                • ???@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  If it’s done for decades why does Palestinians population growing?

                  1. Because of the high birth rate. It doesn’t matter if Palestinians live today still, the key point is that Israel is systematically committing ethnic cleansing. But no you’re right, let’s wait until the last Palestinian is dead before we condemn Israel and cut off aid.
                  2. What is that supposed to mean?
                  • rdri@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago
                    1. I don’t see how Israel is actively trying to do any damage. I see Palestinians think killing Israeli is their life purpose. Therefore the only ones who want genocide or cleansing are Palestinians. If they don’t attack Israel, Israel doesn’t attack them.
                    2. It means “3. See 1.” - was likely a mistake or autocorrection.
        • lennybird@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Securing a safe future is very well the goals of Palestinians, including Hamas in their very charter. The difference is Israel seeks to maintain status-quo because they’re living comfortably with a massive GDP largely dependent on foreign aid and tourism. Meanwhile Palestine are confined to ghettos / open-air prisons as they look on for what Israelis took of their ancestors’ land.

          Also I completely disgree on your notion of producing more terrorists. Israel has only two choices: make more terrorists, or commit genocide against civilians yet to be radicalized. Otherwise your argument doesn’t make logical sense. But ultimately if we step back and choose other options as opposed to reactive violence, there are other ways in which Israel has agency to change this.

          • rdri@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            “By killing Israeli we will achieve our safe future”, sure.

            If they can have their own television in their “open-air prison” surely they can have pretty much anything else. Build infrastructure, not rockets.

            “Ancestor’s land” huh? Maybe first make yourselves look like a civilized people? When you become a terrorist, you lose all culture and therefore any rights for your ancestor stuff.

            Defending against terrorism is not a genocide.

            • lennybird@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              I mean, what the fuck do you think Israel has done to the native Arab populations there for decades on end…? Why is it a one-way street for you? You do realize that more Palestine civilians have died at the hands of Israeli soldiers than Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorists… Riiiight… ?

              If they can have their own television in their “open-air prison” surely they can have pretty much anything else. Build infrastructure, not rockets.

              So I can do whatever the fuck I want to you in my prison, so long as I give you a television and an antenna…? Interesting. Think that through a bit more.

              “Ancestor’s land” huh? Maybe first make yourselves look like a civilized people? When you become a terrorist, you lose all culture and therefore any rights for your ancestor stuff.

              Has it ever occurred to you that we were terrorists when we firebombed and carpet-bombed 90+ Japanese cities? Did it ever occur to you that many civilians died in Dresden, Germany…? It’s all about context, my friend. Hell, Americans were terrorists when we defied the British monarchy. If someone literally took ships full of people to YOUR land, and then slowly began displacing and annexing your land as you continue to wane into poverty, yeah, you would get pretty upset, too. Hence the famous adage, “One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.”

              You have little empathy; that is, you lack the historical awareness or capacity to place yourself in the shoes of these people.

              • rdri@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                You do realize that more Palestine civilians have died at the hands of Israeli soldiers than Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorists… Riiiight… ?

                You do realize that math doesn’t allow anyone practice terrorism, right? If you justify terrorism with that nobody will listen to you, and rightfully so.

                So I can do whatever the fuck I want to you in my prison, so long as I give you a television and an antenna…? Interesting. Think that through a bit more.

                The point is, if you call such a life “a prison” you have no idea what a prison really is. Can they build? Yes. Can they educate themselves? Yes.

                Has it ever occurred to you that we were terrorists when we firebombed and carpet-bombed 90+ Japanese cities?

                Has it ever accured to you that you are justifying terrorists who do terrorism regularly and are teached to do so by hamas?

                It’s all about context, my friend.

                You are avoiding the context. The context being a current state of the world society. If Palestinians really want to come out from their “prison” and connect to the world, someone should’ve told them that regular terrorism will not lead there.

                You have little empathy; that is, you lack the historical awareness or capacity to place yourself in the shoes of these people.

                Hell yes, I will never want to put myself in the shoes of people who want to and enjoy killing. The lack of historical awareness is on Palestinians though.

                • lennybird@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  Perhaps the real terrorists are indeed the squatters stealing slowly stealing land and killing the majority of civilians throughout this conflict…(hint: Israel).

                  Your arguments are not even remotely compelling but utterly deflective while excusing mass atrocities by Israel.

                  • rdri@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Perhaps? Or perhaps terrorists are those who teach their children they need to kill Jews.

                    So is it about the land or the killing? How exactly do you think doing terrorism will help “unsteal” any land?

                    Are you excusing mass terrorism by Palestinians? I think you do. Is that what you call “compelling”?