Like others have mentioned it is dropping in favor of 10 but some who are knowledgeable are moving to Linux as well. Corporations are looking into shifting to alternatives (Linux) as windows 10 loses support… and becomes very expensive per user to keep after Microsoft drops it.

I can’t imagine why the windows 11 market share is dropping.

What precisely am I contradicting? Both of those statements are accurate.

I apologize for not responding to this sooner - you took the time to write that out and I had obligations which didn’t leave me much time to read through it.

First off- I agree completely that it depends significantly on the field- this was my reason for not stating all educational paths are irrelevant. With a nod to your mention of pruning - it doesn’t appear to be solving much considering how bad the entry level job market is for a lot of graduates. I have been fortunate in my career and know people from both camps. Both sides will freely admit the grass looks greener on the other side (which I would take as an acknowledgement of similarity.)

My issue is and remains with the for-profit education system we have now. We have basically sold these young minds on “you need to go to college or you will struggle and fail as an adult.” It doesn’t matter what field you take college is the only path. We then have a surplus of graduates flooding a market that simply cannot absorb that many new bodies. Aforementioned graduates have debt and a need to find work to pay that debt down … and they are desperate. Perfect. Here’s your underpaid entry level position with 0 job security - work harder than you should to maybe have a chance of not being laid off come earnings season.

Capitalism does not belong in higher education - and when that higher education wants to stand on some ivory tower and hold a students livelihood hostage? Fuck them. They may offer structured education but they do not gate keep learning. I digress.

Generally speaking I think your views more or less fall into the “technically yes, but it’s complicated” category… which I have 0 issues with. Education is complicated. Especially now- and I think a lot of the discussions that draw focus to it and its issues are valuable. Cheers.

As I asserted earlier - you are heavily downplaying the efforts of someone working in the same field for the same amount of time and treating it differently. That simply isn’t a fair assessment and is being used to sell a statement that is a half truth. Both individuals have something to show for their time investment that highlights their value. One has a degree which, for the reasons you have specified, is valuable - one has 4 years of experience in the field highlighting they are competent enough and skilled enough to be an asset to the same company for 4 years. To head off the followup: does every worker at a job have 100% “hire this man” energy? Certainly not. Conversely does every graduate have what it takes to succeed in a field? Absolutely not. With that in mind both individuals applying to a new job with the aforementioned experience/degree will, and should be, weighted similarly.

With regard to your electrician example: a licensed electrician is just that. When you hire one do you care if he got a degree in EE prior to getting his license? The result is what matters. This is the point I keep driving at. If I hire a lawyer, I could care less what is hanging on his office wall - I care that he passed the bar and wins consistently. There are many paths to the same result… don’t simply scorn one because it is a path you wouldn’t take.

I respectfully disagree with the difference between someone working on a project or job for 4 years being less “driven” than their counterpart. Execution and follow through are based on per individual. Downplaying the efforts simply because it doesn’t align with your perspective is incorrect. Both individuals are putting forth similar efforts to learn a trade. As I asserted above.

I’ve seen the opposite be true as well - but food for thought here: some of your cohorts probably had similar work experience as you… meaning the differentiator (tie breaker) was certainly the additional “experience.” I’m glad you found the job. Layoffs have been brutal lately.

I see this point used frequently - and it isn’t wrong … but it’s only half of a statement. In that time let’s say someone holds a position for 4 years of experience. These two things are not equally weighted, but very similar at that point. As time progresses that piece of paper continues to lose value when compared to experience in the field.

The degree is, in essence, a signal that someone has achieved at least the base level of competency in a field and stuck with it for x time. So assuming 2 parties with 0 work experience vie for a job naturally the degree holder will win out. It gets murkier when comparing someone with 4 years with in field experience to a 4 year degree holder with 0 experience.

The point I aimed to make was just that. It’s a perfectly reasonable assertion.

I appreciate you taking the time to do the math. It was early enough to where I wouldn’t trust my caffeine deficient mind to do. Kudos.

You and I agree on your final point completely, I just simply believe in non institutional learning. (where applicable, of course)

Education does lead to better pay, certainly. The numbers are somewhat more complicated when it comes to the arithmetic behind it. This is where I find nothing but crippling faults with the American education machine.

An average cost of instate education for a masters is (this is low) 45k. If repaid at 6% apr in 3-5 years were looking at roughly 4500-7k in interest. Let’s call it 50k total deficit. During this same time (3 years education+3 years repayment) let’s assume our highschooler is working and investing his earnings in a moderate 6-10% fund. In 6 years how close are they? Which is closer to home ownership (it’s a joke. neither! but we can dream.)

Without question at a certain point the masters degree will pay off and assuming the same strategy - will overtake the highschool graduate in assets… but the time investment is far more significant than one would anticipate. The actual calculations are very complex as a lot more goes into each of these scenarios- but it does illustrate some of the flaws with assigning x wage vs y wage. In the end I am not specifically speaking against all higher education but speaking for an understanding that it isn’t the only path to take.

Anything outside of a select few professions can be learned outside of a campus with fresher material.

I can’t help but notice your… selection… seems to align with something I already covered. It really is a shame they dropped language arts from grade school curriculum.

edit:

To drill into this further - while there is a barrier to practice: that does not mean you cannot learn anything about the medical field while outside academia.

One statement does not contradict the other. Learning and education are not gatekept by a school. That is the point I made. Widen your view for a moment and maybe understand that a person can learn anywhere. The means to do so exist outside the hallowed halls of academia.

Pay rate increases while at your job and gaining “higher” education is a mixed bag. How much did that education cost vs the pay raise? How long is required to break even on that investment? With the constantly rising costs for said education that gap isn’t getting smaller either.

The sciences are, certainly, one field that can benefit from higher ed. Of course I made such an acknowledgement in my original statement as well. While it seems a few dozen people chose to take that as ‘we don’t need no education’… the statement was directed at funneling the masses through a system to extract profit… and to have a high hit rate offer courses that could be learned directly from the trade being entered. It’s a racket. A long con. And it’s an unfortunate reality a lot of students don’t realize they are caught in until they exit the machine on the other side.

That sounds like a rough experience friend, but if I was working at a company that needed to check up on my documentation after working there for some time - I’d probably find a new job where I wasn’t just employee 253966.

To your point about names carrying their weight - that’s a problem in itself: what about those that don’t go to ivy league? What about those that do that simply lack any marketable skill outside of where they went?

I agree that the interview process at a lot of aforementioned places is particularly awful. Once working there it typically doesn’t improve. The facilities are nice enough, sure… but I’ve seen far too many people working for companies like that get laid off regardless of how performant they were. They are just a line item.

The point I made initially was that many jobs do not require the degree to do the work. Many professions do not benefit from a 4 year college building a curriculum around now outdated information.

There are good companies and good professions that do not have those requirements.

It’s almost as if you breezed by the acknowledgement that some jobs do require secondary education. A fun fact about those doctors, nurses, and other medical professionals: following school they then spend another 4+ years in residency where they actually develop the skills they need to be that doctor you were referring to.

Apocalypse now - extended edition. Move the sub in the bathroom. Turn it all the way up. War is hell.

This is the song that never ends…

Graduation is optional. The dream we were sold in highschool of “go to college” was propaganda spun up by colleges looking to pad their books with your tuition. Many jobs you are seeking have apprenticeship programs where they pay you to learn.

College is and remains a giant expensive mixer to find someone to date. That’s mostly it. Anything outside of a select few professions can be learned outside of a campus with fresher material.

If you want to learn a profession there is nothing gatekeeping you from doing it.

It’s simple. They want the free labor provided by the community with the ability to keep all of the profits they can potentially reap from said labor.

I found it was pretty easy to get rid of the nag. I installed a different OS. For my development stuff that needs windows and I can’t run with wine (very few tools) - I have a VM running a windows version with 0 Internet access. Fuck that company sideways.

JFC Microsoft has no chill. Snip is practically the last thing in windows that works right.