The problem is libertarian groups themselves don’t stand up against anarchists joining them. I remember Gary Johnson getting booed at an official libertarian party gathering for saying he believes in driver’s licences.
Also we already know how libertarianism ends, with robber barons controlling everything and people living in company towns. It’s a terrible political ideal.
What’s wrong with anarchists? I’ve never seen anarchists defending pedophilia. Anarchism doesn’t mean you just freely cause harm to others; quite the contrary.
Oh most anarchists I know are nice people, they just completely fail to understand that not everyone else is. They don’t want to oppress, steal, rape, or murder, and so systems to prevent those things aren’t necessary.
You misunderstand when you say “systems to prevent those things aren’t necessary.” These things are absolutely addressed by anarchists. We’re not foolish enough to rely on the goodness of human nature to carry us through. There is no state, there are no hierarchies, but people causing harm absolutely can experience consequences under anarchism. Diffuse sanctions, for example. At worst, they can be removed from the community or group entirely.
But more than anything else, it’s important to recognize that mutual aid is just as much a part of human nature as things like rape and murder, and the rate at which rape and murder occur are greatly exacerbated by hierarchies. For example, things like masculinity have to go, and we need to stop putting people in positions of power over others and creating such hierarchies.
And this brings me back to the topic at hand. I cannot conceive of an anarchist who would in any way approve of sexually abusing someone young enough to be considered a minor. Above all, anarchists aim to remove hierarchies, and having a grown adult in a relationship with a young teenager – this would create such a power differential that I can’t imagine any anarchist approving of it or hand-waving it away. The anarchists I know very strongly disapprove of such a thing.
The people we colloquially call “libertarians”(1) on the other hand still seem to support the state as well as hierarchies such as those created under capitalism. In fact, most self-described libertarians I know want to do nothing to address the things you mentioned, as well as nothing to address other harmful things such as the social and systemic discrimination against groups like LGBT+ people, BIPOC, women, and others.
(1)yes, a bit of a misnomer since it would make more sense to call anarchists “libertarians,” though no one does, unless we append it with “libertarian left,” though even this seems like a silly term for anarchism
American libertarians are rebranded anarcho-capitalists. Outside of the US, libertarians are largely associated with anarchism and other anti-authoritarian socialist ideologies. Any left-libertarian (the kind that would identify as just anarchist, not ancap) want absolutely nothing to do with Gary Johnson. Don’t put their shit show of an ideology on us lol
Left libertarians are still opposed to a strong central government which is a core issue with libertarianism.
In your ideal government, how would child porn or slavery be addressed? Let’s assume there’s a community that formed because they think it’s a good thing.
I’m a libertarian and I’m not opposed to a strong central government. I think government only works when it has the power to militarily dominate any competing force.
I just think government should be simple, to minimize the number of ways it can break down and end up becoming a tool of the powerful to oppress the weak.
We currently have a set of laws that’s like twenty feet long when you print it out, bind it, and put it on the shelves.
That’s a lot of complexity for malicious code to hide in. A lot of places for petty tyrants to set up shop and spend their life hurting little people under a government seal of authority.
Shitty people exist and always will. It would be foolish of me to say otherwise. The shitty things they do may still happen in a stateless society. Child porn and slavery are being produced in societies with central government right now and very little is being done about it. In a stateless, moneyless society there would be no incentive for slave labor and I think that would largely/entirely disappear.
Child porn is obviously a lot more complex than that and there are several factors in play. First, anarchists and adjacent movement are staunch advocates of community engagement and vigilance. We want to radically change how society functions at the most base levels. If a child is being abused or exploited, it would ideally be easier to spot and act on. There hasn’t been a lot of research into what causes pedophilia or how to treat it in a way that would reduce/eliminate people acting on those urges. Research could be conducted into practical and holistic ways to treat their condition. Poverty is strongly linked to sexual violence of all kinds and the abolition of poverty would surely have a big part to play in the reduction of many things, including child sexual abuse. A society formed around the ideals of libertarian socialism present a real opportunity to end the cycle of abuse and that would certainly play a role in reducing child sexual exploitation.
There’s plenty more to say about this and there’s obviously a lot of detail not covered in my brief comment but there are solutions to this baked into the ideological framework of anarchism and libertarian socialism. I’m not going to say we have all the answers, of course we don’t. But a society organized from the bottom up, with a focus on equality, safety and prosperity for all would not only be incentivised to solve these problems, but would be much quicker to act due to the lack of bureaucratic red tape
Perhaps some facets of libertarianism are really fucked up?
Slavery and child porn are debated by libertarians because the only way to address both is centralized government. However, since most (though not all) libertarians are opposed to any central government, they end up justifying with “well if you want to sell yourself as a slave, why should anyone stop you?”.
But yeah, obviously it’s us that are aware of this who are the fucked up ones.
This is not at all a debate in libertarianism. Libertarians recognize the role of a limited small government to protect individual rights. Like please pull up one example of this debate going on in a libertarian space.
Libertarians don’t believe murder should be legal and crazy shit like that. Libertarians believe in a guaranteed freedoms like freedom of speech, economic liberalism and are often social progressives who believe in gay marriage and drug legalization.
The bill of rights was brought to you by libertarians.
Pretty sure the libertarian stance on slavery is that it is wrong, given the lack of liberty that slaves have. And the fact you can use a government to ensure nobody gets enslaved demonstrates the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist.
The maximum amount of personal liberty does not come from zero government. It comes from
having enough government to prevent people from enslaving other people.
I’m curious what the downvotes are for… Are they saying there’s no helping them or even the thought of helping them is bad?
Of literally all the kinds of people in the world with all the kinds of mental issues they could have, I’ve never seen more vicious hatred of a group than pedophiles. Not to defend them, but it could be as simple as having a sexual attraction but literally never acting on it, yet still I see “kill them, drag them by their genitals, let dogs eat them alive and pee on them” etc… that kind of absolute dehumanizing hatred. Even the sociopaths that are literally destroying the world get by with less violent hatred.
Again, not defending pedophiles, I just think that if it’s an issue of mental help then they should be helped, not hunted.
Those mentions are of systemic state-run murder. That doesn’t make every murder a crime against humanity, especially vigilante justice against literal slavers.
I mean, if libertarians didn’t openly discuss the age of consent and the differences between pedophilia and ephebephilia, maybe people wouldn’t think they’re all a bunch of pedos.
Some of you guys have really warped definitions of libertarianism…
The problem is libertarian groups themselves don’t stand up against anarchists joining them. I remember Gary Johnson getting booed at an official libertarian party gathering for saying he believes in driver’s licences.
Also we already know how libertarianism ends, with robber barons controlling everything and people living in company towns. It’s a terrible political ideal.
What’s wrong with anarchists? I’ve never seen anarchists defending pedophilia. Anarchism doesn’t mean you just freely cause harm to others; quite the contrary.
Oh most anarchists I know are nice people, they just completely fail to understand that not everyone else is. They don’t want to oppress, steal, rape, or murder, and so systems to prevent those things aren’t necessary.
You misunderstand when you say “systems to prevent those things aren’t necessary.” These things are absolutely addressed by anarchists. We’re not foolish enough to rely on the goodness of human nature to carry us through. There is no state, there are no hierarchies, but people causing harm absolutely can experience consequences under anarchism. Diffuse sanctions, for example. At worst, they can be removed from the community or group entirely.
But more than anything else, it’s important to recognize that mutual aid is just as much a part of human nature as things like rape and murder, and the rate at which rape and murder occur are greatly exacerbated by hierarchies. For example, things like masculinity have to go, and we need to stop putting people in positions of power over others and creating such hierarchies.
And this brings me back to the topic at hand. I cannot conceive of an anarchist who would in any way approve of sexually abusing someone young enough to be considered a minor. Above all, anarchists aim to remove hierarchies, and having a grown adult in a relationship with a young teenager – this would create such a power differential that I can’t imagine any anarchist approving of it or hand-waving it away. The anarchists I know very strongly disapprove of such a thing.
The people we colloquially call “libertarians”(1) on the other hand still seem to support the state as well as hierarchies such as those created under capitalism. In fact, most self-described libertarians I know want to do nothing to address the things you mentioned, as well as nothing to address other harmful things such as the social and systemic discrimination against groups like LGBT+ people, BIPOC, women, and others.
(1)yes, a bit of a misnomer since it would make more sense to call anarchists “libertarians,” though no one does, unless we append it with “libertarian left,” though even this seems like a silly term for anarchism
I agree. Those fuckin anarchists are out of control
American libertarians are rebranded anarcho-capitalists. Outside of the US, libertarians are largely associated with anarchism and other anti-authoritarian socialist ideologies. Any left-libertarian (the kind that would identify as just anarchist, not ancap) want absolutely nothing to do with Gary Johnson. Don’t put their shit show of an ideology on us lol
Left libertarians are still opposed to a strong central government which is a core issue with libertarianism.
In your ideal government, how would child porn or slavery be addressed? Let’s assume there’s a community that formed because they think it’s a good thing.
I’m a libertarian and I’m not opposed to a strong central government. I think government only works when it has the power to militarily dominate any competing force.
I just think government should be simple, to minimize the number of ways it can break down and end up becoming a tool of the powerful to oppress the weak.
We currently have a set of laws that’s like twenty feet long when you print it out, bind it, and put it on the shelves.
That’s a lot of complexity for malicious code to hide in. A lot of places for petty tyrants to set up shop and spend their life hurting little people under a government seal of authority.
Shitty people exist and always will. It would be foolish of me to say otherwise. The shitty things they do may still happen in a stateless society. Child porn and slavery are being produced in societies with central government right now and very little is being done about it. In a stateless, moneyless society there would be no incentive for slave labor and I think that would largely/entirely disappear.
Child porn is obviously a lot more complex than that and there are several factors in play. First, anarchists and adjacent movement are staunch advocates of community engagement and vigilance. We want to radically change how society functions at the most base levels. If a child is being abused or exploited, it would ideally be easier to spot and act on. There hasn’t been a lot of research into what causes pedophilia or how to treat it in a way that would reduce/eliminate people acting on those urges. Research could be conducted into practical and holistic ways to treat their condition. Poverty is strongly linked to sexual violence of all kinds and the abolition of poverty would surely have a big part to play in the reduction of many things, including child sexual abuse. A society formed around the ideals of libertarian socialism present a real opportunity to end the cycle of abuse and that would certainly play a role in reducing child sexual exploitation.
There’s plenty more to say about this and there’s obviously a lot of detail not covered in my brief comment but there are solutions to this baked into the ideological framework of anarchism and libertarian socialism. I’m not going to say we have all the answers, of course we don’t. But a society organized from the bottom up, with a focus on equality, safety and prosperity for all would not only be incentivised to solve these problems, but would be much quicker to act due to the lack of bureaucratic red tape
Perhaps some facets of libertarianism are really fucked up?
Slavery and child porn are debated by libertarians because the only way to address both is centralized government. However, since most (though not all) libertarians are opposed to any central government, they end up justifying with “well if you want to sell yourself as a slave, why should anyone stop you?”.
But yeah, obviously it’s us that are aware of this who are the fucked up ones.
This is not at all a debate in libertarianism. Libertarians recognize the role of a limited small government to protect individual rights. Like please pull up one example of this debate going on in a libertarian space.
Libertarians don’t believe murder should be legal and crazy shit like that. Libertarians believe in a guaranteed freedoms like freedom of speech, economic liberalism and are often social progressives who believe in gay marriage and drug legalization.
The bill of rights was brought to you by libertarians.
Pretty sure the libertarian stance on slavery is that it is wrong, given the lack of liberty that slaves have. And the fact you can use a government to ensure nobody gets enslaved demonstrates the difference between a libertarian and an anarchist.
The maximum amount of personal liberty does not come from zero government. It comes from having enough government to prevent people from enslaving other people.
I’d argue pedophilia can be to some degree be addressed with proper mental healthcare.
I’m curious what the downvotes are for… Are they saying there’s no helping them or even the thought of helping them is bad?
Of literally all the kinds of people in the world with all the kinds of mental issues they could have, I’ve never seen more vicious hatred of a group than pedophiles. Not to defend them, but it could be as simple as having a sexual attraction but literally never acting on it, yet still I see “kill them, drag them by their genitals, let dogs eat them alive and pee on them” etc… that kind of absolute dehumanizing hatred. Even the sociopaths that are literally destroying the world get by with less violent hatred.
Again, not defending pedophiles, I just think that if it’s an issue of mental help then they should be helped, not hunted.
Can be addressed with assassination politics aimed at slavers and child abusers.
We can solve [crime against humanity] by [commiting crime against humanity]
That’s literally just a government lol
But without the monopoly on killing slavers and child abusers.
Yeah, you gotta take some risks. There’s no magical fix to bad shit. We just do our best and try to do better.
You think it’s a crime against humanity to kill a slaver?
It is a crime against humanity to willingly take a life, no matter how vile the person
No it’s not.
Very nice of you to link that, I don’t see how this disproves my opinion, as murder is still mentioned on multiple occasions
Those mentions are of systemic state-run murder. That doesn’t make every murder a crime against humanity, especially vigilante justice against literal slavers.
Yeah, libertarians acknowledge that 12 year olds are children, they just also want to fuck children.
Can you link to a libertarian saying that?
Nathan Larson was a libertarian- no need to spin up narratives when it sets itself up, nice try though.
Found the libertarian.
I mean, if libertarians didn’t openly discuss the age of consent and the differences between pedophilia and ephebephilia, maybe people wouldn’t think they’re all a bunch of pedos.