Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about… Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They’re probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
I’m not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I’m suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
Right, but what’s inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn’t be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren’t, I’m wanting to know why those others aren’t.
Ignoring “societal norms”, as they’ve been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
Because regardless of what species does it, cannibalism inevitably causes problems due to prions, diseases, and such. Even if the most dangerous parts (Central nervous system) are avoided, there are still problems (just more slowly).
Well, it doesn’t cause prion diseases, it just spreads them. It’s only transmissible by consumption of conspecifics (or often, as in mad cow disease, by eating similar species - when farmers were feeding cows dead chickens and cows).
So you’re saying the only thing stopping you from eating factory farmed human meat is the risk to your own safety?
So… If there were no risk of disease, you would consider cannibalism and “normal meat eating” to be basically equitable, and equally justifiable? If not, why not?
Sorry I’m just having a hard time getting some solid admissions here, nobody wants to just straight up answer.
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we’re talking about eating humans now, we’re well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won’t eat it. It’s unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I’m more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you’re okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
Honestly in that case I think the risk of disease is so much greater than any moral question. There’s very few things more likely to open a vector for prion or parasite attack than eating your own kind. Plus as mentioned earlier we taste horrible.
And at least you could have gone the creative way of saying ‘What about farming bodies without brains for organ harvesting’ because at least that has some gray areas we can play with.
But NoooOOoo you had to come in with the pseudointellectual dick punch. I’m sure that was clever back on 9gag but we are on lemmy now so act like it.
Right, so the only thing stopping you from factory farming and consuming humans is risk of prion disease and taste? By which it could be understood that if those two issues were solved - no risk of disease, and the flavour enhanced, you would happily factory farm humans.
And vegans are the weird ones? Your priorities are cooked buddy.
Only if you eat the brain or spinal column, which I was careful to add. Otherwise the risks are as manageable as with cow meat, i.e., parasites and bacteria.
Given that you’re okay with eating cats and dogs, and now simple-minded humans, what’s to stop me from killing and eating you? I mean, all anyone needs to assert is that they’re mentally superior to their food, what’s off the table for you?
I’m sure mass scale cannibalism might actually be as good for the environment as a plant based diet. Maybe you’re on to something. We’d be so morally consistent!
go ahead a good third of my country thinks i shouldn’t exist anyway and im sick of fighting it, im sure i taste good too
you keep trying to push people into corners about this when most ppl who eat meat do it simply because it tastes good, has good nutritional value, and is easily accessible. for my two cents in w serious manor, the meat industry is fucked up and should be regulated, since you didn’t take my initial comment as the shitpost it is
there are moral concerns but for most people (majority will never even know what lemmy is) simply don’t care and will never care, because meat tastes good
Pushing people into corners is what good debate is about. If people find their refutations are weak enough to have them back into a corner, then they should abandon that argument.
I grew up on a farm in the south of New Zealand. My brothers were dairy farmers, my front yard was cattle, I was a staunch anti-vegan who swore he’d never eat vegetarian as long as he lived.
I will never care because meat tastes good. Except now I do.
There is no level of regulation that permits - in good moral conscience - the subjugation and slaughter of animals for our pleasure.
Meat is only easily accessible because it is heavily subsidized by the government. A vegan diet is nearly always cheaper - consider that most developing nations eat vegan/vegetarian because of this.
There’s a short book I read that absolutely convinced me of veganism called “This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies The Meat Industry Tells You”. I’ve had 5 people read it, and ALL FIVE have gone vegan. It’s straight up insane how brutal a grip the meat industry has on people, through lobbying, ad campaigns, purposeful obfuscation of the industry. Bananas!
i shouldve known i was getting into this before i decided to make that witty comment that came to my mind on a whim
i agree that the meat industry is a disaster, and i wish there was a proper compromise that could suit everyone. many people in the us simply dont care or have this moral consciousness in the first place because, again, meat tastes good
the solution in reality is to somehow get people eating less meats as we tackle the major issues we face today. making a burger that tastes identical to a traditional burger is not easy and it is as it stands now much more expensive anywhere you go, which isnt changing without baby steps
going out to eat in rural ny with a budget, my options that i can afford dont include vegan anything barring a side salad. im not giving up what nice things i can go out and enjoy until theres more options. call me selfish idrc, i have enough to deal with as it stands. not going to give up something that does make me happy like going out to eat with family to prove a point to an industry that doesnt even know i exist
not proofreading this or anything so if i come to reword anything i said thats womp womp for me ig. thats where i stand muting this thread now
“Meat tastes good” as an argument for immoral actions is not valid logic. “Sex feels good” is not valid justification for sexual assault. “Men taste good” is not justification for Jeffrey Dahmer.
“Let’s eat less meat”. Again, there is no valid moral argument for “just a little bit of sexual assault”. “Only a wee bit of animal abuse”, “only occasional racism”. A moral wrong is a moral wrong. But hey at least it isn’t “I’d go vegan, but I just love cheese!”. Well then go vegan but eat cheese.
As for rural NY, I’d use Happycow.net to find places. I’ve eaten vegan in rural Bali, rural NZ, rural Australia, rural England, and never paid more than my meat eating counterparts. But if that’s still a concern, then eat vegan at home, meat when going out.
Although I’d still argue that “it’s more convenient for me commit sexual assault than to hire a sex worker” isn’t a valid justification.
Seriously if you get the option, read that book I recommended, even just the first chapter. I can buy you a copy of you like, DM me an email address and I’ll gift a copy. If you read it, I will genuinely send you PayPal money for a vegan dinner in rural NY. I’ve taken everyone else who read the book out to dinner, it’s only fair you get a free one!
tip if you want to be an activist for something, don’t compare something the opposing party is doing to sexual assault. you and i both know that isn’t a valid comparison
Cows are forcibly impregnated in perpetuity by humans, separated from their children and then had their milk taken so we can drink it. As soon as the cow can longer be impregnated and becomes unprofitable, it is killed for meat.
If a man sticks his fist in the vagina of a cow for fun, it is sexual animal abuse. If a man sticks his fist in the vagina of a cow, hoping to later kill and eat it’s flesh, it’s lunch.
I think a comparison is valid. Just because you are a willing participant and enabler in this animal sexual exploitation does not invalidate or soften the facts.
Great, so we agree no animals are ethically off limits to kill and consume. How about… Some of the more simple minded human populace? Like, if through IQ testing we find the bottom 5% of humans, and (without eating brain and spine, avoiding prion diseases) feed them to the masses? They’re probably not terribly much smarter than dogs, and they could help curb food shortages. Or are humans off limits?
Thats a fine slippery slope argument u got there and like always its complete shit, people are people and animals are animals.
I’m not suggesting that animal eating leads to cannibalism, which WOULD be a slippery slope.
I’m suggesting that if meat eaters are okay with killing and eating animals, why not the human animal? I probe because the line drawn in the sand is unclear with meat eaters.
Also, humans are animals. This is primary school stuff here.
What separates eating animals from eating people for you?
The fact that you are eating your own species, which is cannibalism.
Right, but what’s inherently wrong with eating your own species? I mean, I know, I think any sentient life shouldn’t be killed for my pleasure. But with your logic that some species are okay to kill and eat, and others aren’t, I’m wanting to know why those others aren’t.
Ignoring “societal norms”, as they’ve been used to commit genocide, slavery, and all manner of atrocities - why is cannibalism logically, in your opinion, bad?
Because regardless of what species does it, cannibalism inevitably causes problems due to prions, diseases, and such. Even if the most dangerous parts (Central nervous system) are avoided, there are still problems (just more slowly).
Well, it doesn’t cause prion diseases, it just spreads them. It’s only transmissible by consumption of conspecifics (or often, as in mad cow disease, by eating similar species - when farmers were feeding cows dead chickens and cows).
So you’re saying the only thing stopping you from eating factory farmed human meat is the risk to your own safety?
No, I’m saying that’s the main differentiation between cannibalism and normal meat eating.
Personally, I have a huge problem with all factory farmed meat, and am mostly vegetarian.
So… If there were no risk of disease, you would consider cannibalism and “normal meat eating” to be basically equitable, and equally justifiable? If not, why not?
Sorry I’m just having a hard time getting some solid admissions here, nobody wants to just straight up answer.
No, humans taste nasty all joking aside. Also prions. Don’t eat your own kind, there are reasons for this.
That’s why I said “avoiding the brain and spine, to avoid prion diseases”. You might have misread my comment.
do you trust the processing facilities for the underground dogmeat industry to even come close to choosing safety over profit in shaving that meat down as close to cartilage as possible?
Oh we’re talking about eating humans now, we’re well past dogs as it seems like a fair few people here would be okay with factory farming them.
Personally, my ethics are simple and easily define - if it displays sentience, I won’t eat it. It’s unethical to kill and eat something that feels pain. I’m more interested in your more nebulous ethics, where some species are okay to eat, some not
It sounds like you’re okay with eating dogs, which id argue is demonstrably disgusting, but in your opinion, is it okay to rear, kill and then eat humans?
Honestly in that case I think the risk of disease is so much greater than any moral question. There’s very few things more likely to open a vector for prion or parasite attack than eating your own kind. Plus as mentioned earlier we taste horrible.
And at least you could have gone the creative way of saying ‘What about farming bodies without brains for organ harvesting’ because at least that has some gray areas we can play with.
But NoooOOoo you had to come in with the pseudointellectual dick punch. I’m sure that was clever back on 9gag but we are on lemmy now so act like it.
Right, so the only thing stopping you from factory farming and consuming humans is risk of prion disease and taste? By which it could be understood that if those two issues were solved - no risk of disease, and the flavour enhanced, you would happily factory farm humans.
And vegans are the weird ones? Your priorities are cooked buddy.
there are genuine health issues with cannibalism unlike dogs and cats, bet we taste good too given the right seasonings tho
Only if you eat the brain or spinal column, which I was careful to add. Otherwise the risks are as manageable as with cow meat, i.e., parasites and bacteria. Given that you’re okay with eating cats and dogs, and now simple-minded humans, what’s to stop me from killing and eating you? I mean, all anyone needs to assert is that they’re mentally superior to their food, what’s off the table for you?
I’m sure mass scale cannibalism might actually be as good for the environment as a plant based diet. Maybe you’re on to something. We’d be so morally consistent!
go ahead a good third of my country thinks i shouldn’t exist anyway and im sick of fighting it, im sure i taste good too
you keep trying to push people into corners about this when most ppl who eat meat do it simply because it tastes good, has good nutritional value, and is easily accessible. for my two cents in w serious manor, the meat industry is fucked up and should be regulated, since you didn’t take my initial comment as the shitpost it is
there are moral concerns but for most people (majority will never even know what lemmy is) simply don’t care and will never care, because meat tastes good
Pushing people into corners is what good debate is about. If people find their refutations are weak enough to have them back into a corner, then they should abandon that argument.
I grew up on a farm in the south of New Zealand. My brothers were dairy farmers, my front yard was cattle, I was a staunch anti-vegan who swore he’d never eat vegetarian as long as he lived.
I will never care because meat tastes good. Except now I do.
There is no level of regulation that permits - in good moral conscience - the subjugation and slaughter of animals for our pleasure.
Meat is only easily accessible because it is heavily subsidized by the government. A vegan diet is nearly always cheaper - consider that most developing nations eat vegan/vegetarian because of this.
There’s a short book I read that absolutely convinced me of veganism called “This is Vegan Propaganda and Other Lies The Meat Industry Tells You”. I’ve had 5 people read it, and ALL FIVE have gone vegan. It’s straight up insane how brutal a grip the meat industry has on people, through lobbying, ad campaigns, purposeful obfuscation of the industry. Bananas!
i shouldve known i was getting into this before i decided to make that witty comment that came to my mind on a whim
i agree that the meat industry is a disaster, and i wish there was a proper compromise that could suit everyone. many people in the us simply dont care or have this moral consciousness in the first place because, again, meat tastes good
the solution in reality is to somehow get people eating less meats as we tackle the major issues we face today. making a burger that tastes identical to a traditional burger is not easy and it is as it stands now much more expensive anywhere you go, which isnt changing without baby steps
going out to eat in rural ny with a budget, my options that i can afford dont include vegan anything barring a side salad. im not giving up what nice things i can go out and enjoy until theres more options. call me selfish idrc, i have enough to deal with as it stands. not going to give up something that does make me happy like going out to eat with family to prove a point to an industry that doesnt even know i exist
not proofreading this or anything so if i come to reword anything i said thats womp womp for me ig. thats where i stand muting this thread now
“Meat tastes good” as an argument for immoral actions is not valid logic. “Sex feels good” is not valid justification for sexual assault. “Men taste good” is not justification for Jeffrey Dahmer.
“Let’s eat less meat”. Again, there is no valid moral argument for “just a little bit of sexual assault”. “Only a wee bit of animal abuse”, “only occasional racism”. A moral wrong is a moral wrong. But hey at least it isn’t “I’d go vegan, but I just love cheese!”. Well then go vegan but eat cheese.
As for rural NY, I’d use Happycow.net to find places. I’ve eaten vegan in rural Bali, rural NZ, rural Australia, rural England, and never paid more than my meat eating counterparts. But if that’s still a concern, then eat vegan at home, meat when going out.
Although I’d still argue that “it’s more convenient for me commit sexual assault than to hire a sex worker” isn’t a valid justification.
Seriously if you get the option, read that book I recommended, even just the first chapter. I can buy you a copy of you like, DM me an email address and I’ll gift a copy. If you read it, I will genuinely send you PayPal money for a vegan dinner in rural NY. I’ve taken everyone else who read the book out to dinner, it’s only fair you get a free one!
tip if you want to be an activist for something, don’t compare something the opposing party is doing to sexual assault. you and i both know that isn’t a valid comparison
Cows are forcibly impregnated in perpetuity by humans, separated from their children and then had their milk taken so we can drink it. As soon as the cow can longer be impregnated and becomes unprofitable, it is killed for meat.
If a man sticks his fist in the vagina of a cow for fun, it is sexual animal abuse. If a man sticks his fist in the vagina of a cow, hoping to later kill and eat it’s flesh, it’s lunch.
I think a comparison is valid. Just because you are a willing participant and enabler in this animal sexual exploitation does not invalidate or soften the facts.