Look, if you don’t care about LGBT folks, women who need abortions, asylum seekers, etc. you can pull that “don’t care” lever. But “I care about making a symbolic, but ultimately toothless, gesture about Palestine more than I care about the lives of thousands, possibly millions of others” is what voting third-party is telling the system right now. If that makes you feel morally superior, we’re at an impasse because I don’t know how to explain to someone that an action to save lives is more powerful than an unrealistic gesture about saving even more lives, but which will realistically increase the amount of death and suffering.
Is there a red line for you in the sand, or would you vote for Hitler if 101% Hitler was running? When do you abandon hope in the Democrats, if being genocidal Imperialists doing nothing to help marginalized groups, and are running to the right of Trump in 2016 with respect to immigration, doesn’t?
That’s a non-sequitur, because that’s not what’s happening by any means. But thanks for ceding the point that you’re okay feeling morally superior by doing something that’ll get more people killed.
There’s no red line that Americans can VOTE on. We don’t get to vote on how America goes to war, period. You really want to frame this in the context that your actually doing something other than undermining a fair election. You’ve gone way past the red line in your support of Trump.
Sure there is, you can vote Green or PSL. If you disapprove of the Democrats but will never not vote for them, you’re the same as the rabid supporters of Zionism that vote for the Dems, materially. Are you looking to join a Leftist party, try to destabilize the system and establish Socialism? If not, it seems like you’re just supporting the status quo and not lifting a finger no matter how bad it gets.
No, I don’t support Trump, that’s why I support leftist candidates and advocate for people to abandon the Dems and Reps.
You sure can if you believe that making an insignificant point in a ballot box is worth more than the actual lives of people who would die because of a Trump administration but not under a Harris one. But if you want to make an actual difference. the ballot box is one of the very few times you need to hold your nose and do the uncomfortable thing of choosing liberalism over fascism.
But if you’re okay with fascism, sure. Go and make your vote a spoiler that helps the fascists win. I’m sure the people who die because doctors who were scared to provide medically necessary abortions will be grateful that you did the morally superior, but entirely ineffective, thing.
You sure can if you believe that making an insignificant point in a ballot box is worth more than the actual lives of people who would die because of a Trump administration but not under a Harris one. But if you want to make an actual difference. the ballot box is one of the very few times you need to hold your nose and do the uncomfortable thing of choosing liberalism over fascism.
You can vote for fascism if that’s what you want, I reject it.
But if you’re okay with fascism, sure. Go and make your vote a spoiler that helps the fascists win. I’m sure the people who die because doctors who were scared to provide medically necessary abortions will be grateful that you did the morally superior, but entirely ineffective, thing.
You’re voting fascism in, the Dems have failed for half a century to codify abortion rights because they don’t care.
You and everyone else here with an agenda ARE supporting the status quo
TIL advocating people to join revolutionary parties and overthrow the system is “supporting the status quo,” while voting for the establishment parties is “punk.” Is this a Twilight Zone episode?
Do you think you’re voting socialism in with a Jill Stein vote?
Nah, just voting against genocide and Imperialism. Voting doesn’t really matter anyways
Because I guarantee you that’s not what she’s running for.
Cool.
You know very well that you can’t go into an American polling station and vote for anti-establishment policies.
I can and I will.
The spoiler vote comes down to ONE real world mechanic. Undermining the popular candidate’s vote.
Can’t be a spoiler if I would never vote for a genocidal monster anyways. Harris is spoiling her own votes.
"You really want to frame this in the context that your actually doing something other than undermining a fair election. "
I find that arguing a person must vote for one of two pro-genocide parties already undermines your idea of a “fair election.” What primary even nominated Harris as the Democrat candidate? -Not that our primary systems is particularly representative of a “fair election” system, either. I just don’t remember when these were candidates voted on.
societies generally throw away the rules and stop relying on these institutions when it becomes clear they arent actually doing anything for us. why arent us?
Yes yes, we all see the rhetorical trap you’re trying to deploy. It’s not exactly subtle.
Meanwhile in the real world, in most of the US there is no realistic alternative to the red/blue dichotomy, and so while we’re actually building that alternative we have to choose between those two. At the national level and in most (possibly all) senate/house races, that’s the reality of the situation. You either work with the coalition you think is less evil and try to convince them to be even less evil, or you admit that you’re okay with the more evil option if it gives you a feeling of moral superiority.
Meanwhile in the real world, in most of the US there is no realistic alternative to the red/blue dichotomy, and so while we’re actually building that alternative we have to choose between those two.
You aren’t building the alternative, you’re arguing against building the alternative. You support the status quo.
You either work with the coalition you think is less evil and try to convince them to be even less evil, or you admit that you’re okay with the more evil option if it gives you a feeling of moral superiority
Correct, you’re doing the latter while I’m doing the former. Trying to work with Socialists and build a good party is better than sitting on your hands and giving the genocidal imperialists the keys forever.
“Building an alternative” doesn’t happen in the ballot box. It happens everywhere else.
It happens by getting a better voting system rather than FPTP, for which I’m doing actual, active advocacy. (Are you?)
It happens by working at a grassroots level to get people with better opinions elected, all the way down to local judges, city council members and library boards, where I, once again, am active. (Are you?)
It happens by getting involved in politics at a local level and building a movement. I’m doing that. (Are you?) It doesn’t happen by throwing a tantrum in the voting booth.
The fascists know this. The fascists use this to their advantage. And the fascists would absolutely love for there to be 10 competing leftist parties acting as a spoiler effect for liberals. Because as bad as liberals are, fascists are worse.
Throwing out a “no u” when I point out how the things you are doing are paving the way for fascists is not a good argument unless your goal is to actually get fascists into power. And I will choose liberalism over fascism, because that’s the harm reduction path to leftism, whereas letting the fascists win is the harm maximisation path.
“Building an alternative” doesn’t happen in the ballot box. It happens everywhere else.
Mostly correct, actually, it’s just important to highlight how unimportant the ballot box is.
It happens by getting a better voting system rather than FPTP, for which I’m doing actual, active advocacy. (Are you?)
No, because that’s silly, and won’t fix anything. Only revolution can.
It happens by working at a grassroots level to get people with better opinions elected, all the way down to local judges, city council members and library boards, where I, once again, am active. (Are you?)
Ah, the old “out of sight, out of mind” approach! Certainly won’t be sufficient.
It happens by getting involved in politics at a local level and building a movement. I’m doing that. (Are you?) It doesn’t happen by throwing a tantrum in the voting booth.
Yep, I am checking out my local chapters of FRSO and PSL and am going to sign on with one of them. They are DemCent, so I can’t join both.
The fascists know this. The fascists use this to their advantage. And the fascists would absolutely love for there to be 10 competing leftist parties acting as a spoiler effect for liberals. Because as bad as liberals are, fascists are worse.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, you can’t separate liberalism over time from fascism. Fascism isn’t an idea, but a defensive response to leftism.
Throwing out a “no u” when I point out how the things you are doing are paving the way for fascists is not a good argument unless your goal is to actually get fascists into power. And I will choose liberalism over fascism, because that’s the harm reduction path to leftism, whereas letting the fascists win is the harm maximisation path.
You say this while saying you help perpetuate liberalism, paving the way for fascism, lmao
It’s morally superior to vote for genocide but pretend your flavor of genocide isn’t the exact same as the other flavor of genocide.
Look, if you don’t care about LGBT folks, women who need abortions, asylum seekers, etc. you can pull that “don’t care” lever. But “I care about making a symbolic, but ultimately toothless, gesture about Palestine more than I care about the lives of thousands, possibly millions of others” is what voting third-party is telling the system right now. If that makes you feel morally superior, we’re at an impasse because I don’t know how to explain to someone that an action to save lives is more powerful than an unrealistic gesture about saving even more lives, but which will realistically increase the amount of death and suffering.
Is there a red line for you in the sand, or would you vote for Hitler if 101% Hitler was running? When do you abandon hope in the Democrats, if being genocidal Imperialists doing nothing to help marginalized groups, and are running to the right of Trump in 2016 with respect to immigration, doesn’t?
That’s a non-sequitur, because that’s not what’s happening by any means. But thanks for ceding the point that you’re okay feeling morally superior by doing something that’ll get more people killed.
So either there’s no red line, or genocide doesn’t matter if it’s against Muslims for you.
There’s no red line that Americans can VOTE on. We don’t get to vote on how America goes to war, period. You really want to frame this in the context that your actually doing something other than undermining a fair election. You’ve gone way past the red line in your support of Trump.
Sure there is, you can vote Green or PSL. If you disapprove of the Democrats but will never not vote for them, you’re the same as the rabid supporters of Zionism that vote for the Dems, materially. Are you looking to join a Leftist party, try to destabilize the system and establish Socialism? If not, it seems like you’re just supporting the status quo and not lifting a finger no matter how bad it gets.
No, I don’t support Trump, that’s why I support leftist candidates and advocate for people to abandon the Dems and Reps.
You sure can if you believe that making an insignificant point in a ballot box is worth more than the actual lives of people who would die because of a Trump administration but not under a Harris one. But if you want to make an actual difference. the ballot box is one of the very few times you need to hold your nose and do the uncomfortable thing of choosing liberalism over fascism.
But if you’re okay with fascism, sure. Go and make your vote a spoiler that helps the fascists win. I’m sure the people who die because doctors who were scared to provide medically necessary abortions will be grateful that you did the morally superior, but entirely ineffective, thing.
You can vote for fascism if that’s what you want, I reject it.
You’re voting fascism in, the Dems have failed for half a century to codify abortion rights because they don’t care.
Removed by mod
Wake up, liberal! Lol
TIL advocating people to join revolutionary parties and overthrow the system is “supporting the status quo,” while voting for the establishment parties is “punk.” Is this a Twilight Zone episode?
Nah, just voting against genocide and Imperialism. Voting doesn’t really matter anyways
Cool.
I can and I will.
Can’t be a spoiler if I would never vote for a genocidal monster anyways. Harris is spoiling her own votes.
I find that arguing a person must vote for one of two pro-genocide parties already undermines your idea of a “fair election.” What primary even nominated Harris as the Democrat candidate? -Not that our primary systems is particularly representative of a “fair election” system, either. I just don’t remember when these were candidates voted on.
then is the system fair?
societies generally throw away the rules and stop relying on these institutions when it becomes clear they arent actually doing anything for us. why arent us?
Yes yes, we all see the rhetorical trap you’re trying to deploy. It’s not exactly subtle.
Meanwhile in the real world, in most of the US there is no realistic alternative to the red/blue dichotomy, and so while we’re actually building that alternative we have to choose between those two. At the national level and in most (possibly all) senate/house races, that’s the reality of the situation. You either work with the coalition you think is less evil and try to convince them to be even less evil, or you admit that you’re okay with the more evil option if it gives you a feeling of moral superiority.
You aren’t building the alternative, you’re arguing against building the alternative. You support the status quo.
Correct, you’re doing the latter while I’m doing the former. Trying to work with Socialists and build a good party is better than sitting on your hands and giving the genocidal imperialists the keys forever.
“Building an alternative” doesn’t happen in the ballot box. It happens everywhere else.
It happens by getting a better voting system rather than FPTP, for which I’m doing actual, active advocacy. (Are you?)
It happens by working at a grassroots level to get people with better opinions elected, all the way down to local judges, city council members and library boards, where I, once again, am active. (Are you?)
It happens by getting involved in politics at a local level and building a movement. I’m doing that. (Are you?) It doesn’t happen by throwing a tantrum in the voting booth.
The fascists know this. The fascists use this to their advantage. And the fascists would absolutely love for there to be 10 competing leftist parties acting as a spoiler effect for liberals. Because as bad as liberals are, fascists are worse.
Throwing out a “no u” when I point out how the things you are doing are paving the way for fascists is not a good argument unless your goal is to actually get fascists into power. And I will choose liberalism over fascism, because that’s the harm reduction path to leftism, whereas letting the fascists win is the harm maximisation path.
i just want to pass by to point out that fptp is implemented on many places without the big results the proponents of this solution say it to be.
the same goes for mandatory voting. we have the same issues with electoralism.
Mostly correct, actually, it’s just important to highlight how unimportant the ballot box is.
No, because that’s silly, and won’t fix anything. Only revolution can.
Ah, the old “out of sight, out of mind” approach! Certainly won’t be sufficient.
Yep, I am checking out my local chapters of FRSO and PSL and am going to sign on with one of them. They are DemCent, so I can’t join both.
Fascism is Capitalism in decay, you can’t separate liberalism over time from fascism. Fascism isn’t an idea, but a defensive response to leftism.
You say this while saying you help perpetuate liberalism, paving the way for fascism, lmao