But the real questions is, can we change them?
Imagine this:
Fair and respectable points, but I don’t think we’re going to see eye to eye on this. It seems like we have different priorities when it comes to reporting on issues.
Honestly, I don’t disagree with you in thinking that the ulterior motive of the proposal is to undermine user freedom, user privacy, and/or ad blockers. Given Google’s history with Manifest V3 and using Chrome’s dominance to force vendors to adopt out-of-spec changes to web standards (passive scroll listeners come to mind), it would be burying my head in the sand to expect otherwise. My issue here is with portraying speculation and personal opinions as objective truths. Even if I agree that a locked down web is the most likely outcome, it’s just not a fact until someone working on that proposal outright says it was their intent, or it actually happens.
That doesn’t mean I think we should ignore the Doomsday device factory until it starts creating Doomsday devices, either, though. Google will never outright state that is their goal to cripple adblockers or control the web, and if it comes to happen, they’ll just rely on corporate weasel words to claim that they never promised they wouldn’t. And since we can’t trust corporations to be transparent and truthful, we shouldn’t be taking their promises or claims at face value. You’re absolutely right about that.
Going back to reporting about this kind of stuff, though: It’s not wrong for the original post to look past the surface-level claims, or for people to point out the corporate speak and lack of commitment. If there’s a factory labeled “Not Doomsday Devices” that pinkie promises they aren’t building Doomsday devices, I definitely would want someone to bring attention to it. I just don’t think the right way to do it is with a pitchfork-wielding mob of angry citizens who were told the factory is unquestionably building anthrax bioweapons, however.
We don’t gain much from readers being told things that will worry them and piss them off. I mean—sure—there’s now more awareness about the issue. But it’s not actually all that constructive if they aren’t critically engaging with the proposal. Google and web standards committees aren’t going to listen to a bunch of angry Lemmy users reiterating the same talking points over and over. They’re just going to treat it as a brigade and block further feedback until people forget about it (which they did).
If the topic was broached in a balanced and accurate way that refrained from making conclusions before providing readers with the facts, there would be less knee-jerk reactions. Maybe this is just me being naive, but I think it’s more likely that Google would be receptive to well-thought-out, respectful criticism as opposed to a significant quantity of hostile accusations.
With that being said, I will concede that I overcorrected for the original post too much. I should have written a response covering the issue in a way that I found more ideal, rather than trying to balance out the bias from the original post. My goal was to point out the ragebait title and add missing information so readers could come to their own informed conclusions, not defend Google.
Would my government? Aladeen, 100%.
If that doesn’t make sense, it’s a reference to a movie.
Did you read until the end, or was it more important to accuse me of either being stupid or a corporate shill? I have nothing against you, and I don’t see how it’s constructive to be hostile towards me.
I said that the proposal itself does not aim to be DRM or adblock repellent, and cited the text directly from the document. It’s possible that something got lost in communication, but that wasn’t me trying to suggest that we should just blindly trust that this proposal has the users’ best interests at heart, or that motivations behind creating it could never, ever be disingenuous.
Hell, I even made sure to edit my post to clarify how the proposal—if implemented—could be used to prevent ad blockers. The paragraphs right after the one you quoted say:
To elaborate on the consequences of the proposal…
Could it be used to prevent ad blocking? Yes. There are two hypothetical ways this could hurt adblock extensions:
- As part of the browser “environment” data, the browser could opt to send details about whether built-in ad-block is enabled, any ad-block extensions are enabled, or even if there are any extensions installed at all.
Knowing this data and trusting it’s not fake, a website could choose to refuse to serve contents to browsers that have extensions or ad blocking software.
- This could lead to a walled-garden web. Browsers that don’t support the standard, or minority usage browsers could be prevented from accessing content.
Websites could then require that users visit from a browser that doesn’t support adblock extensions.
Given Google’s history, the assertion made by the title isn’t wrong. That doesn’t mean that it’s objective and informative, however.
The title suggests that the intent is to create DRM for web pages and “make ad blockers near-impossible”. From an informational standpoint, it correctly captures the likely consequences that would occur should the proposal be implemented. What it (nor the post body) does not do is provide an explanation, information, or context to explain why the proposal demonstrates the claim that is being made.
The reader is not informed about Google’s history of trying to subvert ad blockers, nor are they shown how the proposal will lead to DRMed web pages and adblock prevention. The post is a reaction-inducing title followed by a link to a proposal and angry comments on GitHub. That’s not informative; that’s ragebait.
Suppose I give the post the benefit of the doubt, and consider the bar for being “informative” to be simply letting people know about something. It’s still not objective. I’m not saying the OP should support Google or downplay the severity of the proposal, but they could have got the same point across without including their own prejudices:
“Google engineers propose new web standard that would enable websites to prevent access from browsers running adblockers or website-altering extentions.”
For the record: I agree with what this post is trying to say. I just disagree with how it’s said. Lemmy isn’t hemorrhaging ad money, and it isn’t overwhelmingly noisy. We don’t need to bring over toxic engagement tactics to generate views.
Oh, for sure. When bullet point number one involves advertising, they don’t make it hard to see that the underlying motivation is to assist advertising platforms somehow.
I think this is an extremely slippery and dangerous slope to go down, and I’ve commented as such and explained how this sort of thing could end up harming users directly as well as providing ways to shut out users with adblocking software.
But, that doesn’t change my opinion that the original post is framed in a sensationalized manner and comes across as ragebaiting and misinforming. The proposal doesn’t directly endorse or enable DRMing of web pages and their contents, and the post text does not explain how the conclusion of adblockers being killed follows from the premise of the proposal being implemented. To understand how OP came to that conclusion, I had to read the full document, read the feedback on the GitHub issues, and put myself in the shoes of someone trying to abuse it. Unfortunately, not everyone will take the time to do that.
As an open community, we need to do better than incite anger and lead others into jumping to conclusions. Teach and explain. Help readers understand what this is all about, and then show them how these changes would negatively impact them.
Having thought about it for a bit, it’s possible for this proposal to be abused by authoritarian governments.
Suppose a government—say, Wadiya—mandated that all websites allowed on the Wadiyan Internet must ensure that visitors are using a list of verified browsers. This list is provided by the Wadiyan government, and includes: Wadiya On-Line, Wadiya Explorer, and WadiyaScape Navigator. All three of those browsers are developed in cooperation with the Wadiyan government.
Each of those browsers also happen to send a list of visited URLs to a Wadiyan government agency, and routinely scan the hard drive for material deemed “anti-social.”
Because the attestations are cryptographically verified, citizens would not be able to fake the browser environment. They couldn’t just download Firefox and install an extension to pretend to be Wadiya Explorer; they would actually have to install the spyware browser to be able to browse websites available on the Wadiyan Internet.
In my other comments, I did say that I don’t trust this proposal either. I even edited the comment you’re replying to to explain how the proposal could be used in a way to hurt adblockers.
My issue is strictly with how the original post is framed. It’s using a sensationalized title, doesn’t attempt to describe the proposal, and doesn’t explain how the conclusion of “Google […] [wants] to introduce DRM for web pages” follows the premise (the linked proposal).
I wouldn’t be here commenting if the post had used a better title such as “Google proposing web standard for web browser verification: a slippery slope that may hurt adblockers and the open web,” summarized the proposal, and explained the potential consequences of it being implemented.
Frankly, I don’t trust that the end result won’t hurt users. This kind of thing, allowing browser environments to be sent to websites, is ripe for abuse and is a slippery slope to a walled garden of “approved” browsers and devices.
That being said, the post title is misleading, and that was my whole reason to comment. It frames the proposal as a direct and intentional attack on users ability to locally modify the web pages served to them. I wouldn’t have said anything if the post body made a reasonable attempt to objectively describe the proposal and explain why it would likely hurt users who install adblockers.
I don’t disagree with you. If this gets implemented, the end result is going to be a walled garden web that only accepts “trusted” browsers. That’s the concern here for ad blocking: every website demanding a popular browser that just so happens to not support extensions.
My issue is with how the OP framed the post. The title is misleading and suggests that this is a direct attempt to DRM the web, when it’s not. I wouldn’t have said anything if the post was less sensationalized, laying out the details of the proposal and its long-term consequences in an objective and informative way.
This post title is misleading.
They aren’t proposing a way for browsers to DRM page contents and prevent modifications from extensions. This proposal is for an API that allows for details of the browser environment to be shared and cryptographically verified. Think of it like how Android apps have a framework to check that a device is not rooted, except it will also tell you more details like what flavor of OS is being used.
Is it a pointless proposal that will hurt the open web more than it will help? Yes.
Could it be used to enforce DRM? Also, yes. A server could refuse to provide protected content to unverified browsers or browsers running under an environment they don’t trust (e.g. Linux).
Does it aim to destroy extensions and adblockers? No.
Straight from the page itself:
Non-goals:
…
- Enforce or interfere with browser functionality, including plugins and extensions.
Edit: To elaborate on the consequences of the proposal…
Could it be used to prevent ad blocking? Yes. There are two hypothetical ways this could hurt adblock extensions:
Knowing this data and trusting it’s not fake, a website could choose to refuse to serve contents to browsers that have extensions or ad blocking software.
Websites could then require that users visit from a browser that doesn’t support adblock extensions.
I’m not saying the proposal is harmless and should be implemented. It has consequences that will hurt both users and adblockers, but it shouldn’t be sensationalized to “Google wants to add DRM to web pages”.
Edit 2: Most of the recent feedback on the GitHub issues seems to be lacking in feedback on the proposal itself, but here’s some good ones that bring up excellent concerns:
The proposal does not do an adequate job explaining how a browser may be attested to.. Would this require something like Secure Boot in order for a browser to be attested to? That would discriminate against users with outdated hardware lacking support for boot integrity, or users who don’t have it enabled for some reason or another.
I suspect to get downvotes into oblivion for this, but there’s nothing wrong with the concept of C2PA.
It’s basically just Git commit signing, but for images. An organization (user) signs image data (a commit) with their public key, and other users can check that the image provenance (chain of signed commits) exists and the signing key is known to be owned by the organization (the signer’s public key is trusted). It does signing of images created using multiple assets (merge commits), too.
All of this is opt-in, and you need a private key. No private key, no signing. You can also strip the provenance by just copying the raw pixels and saving it as a new image (copying the worktree and deleting .git).
A scummy manufacturer could automatically generate keys on a per-user basis and sign the images to “track” the creator, but C2PA doesn’t make it any easier than just throwing a field in the EXIF or automatically uploading photos to some government-owned server.
Back when I was in school, we had typing classes. I’m not sure if that’s because I’m younger than you and they assumed we has basic computer literacy, or older than you and they assumed we couldn’t type at all. In either case, we used Macs.
It wasn’t until university that we even had an option to use Linux on school computers, and that’s only because they have a big CS program. They’re also heavily locked-down Ubuntu instances that re-image the drive on boot, so it’s not like we could tinker much or learn how to install anything.
Unfortunately—at least in North America—you really have to go out of your way to learn how to do things in Linux. That’s just something most people don’t have the time for, and there’s not much incentive driving people to switch.
A small side note: I’m pretty thankful for Valve and the Steam Deck. I feel like it’s been doing a pretty good job teaching people how to approach Linux.
By going for a polished console-like experience with game mode by default, people are shown that Linux isn’t a big, scary mish-mash of terminal windows and obscure FOSS programs without a consistent design language. And by also making it possible to enter a desktop environment and plug in a keyboard and mouse, people can* explore a more conventional Linux graphical environment if they’re comfortable trying that.
It’s possible that Google doesn’t, although that would be weird since the ability to push apps is probably standardized and baked into the stock Android OS source code.
Or maybe you just used MVNOs that don’t purposefully install anything that isn’t strictly necessary.
Android OS developers or software devs working for cell providers would probably know the answer, though.
Anecdotally, I can confirm otherwise. I bought an unlocked Galaxy phone directly from Samsung, and putting in a SIM card provisioned it for my cell provider and installed their apps.
Thankfully, I’m not on a provider that pushes adware.
Oh cool, there’s a 200mp camera. Something that only pro photographers care about lol.
Oh this is a fun one! Trained, professional photographers generally don’t care either, since more megapixels aren’t guaranteed to make better photos.
Consider two sensors that take up the same physical space and capture light with the same efficiency/ability, but are 10 vs 40 megapixels. (Note: Realistically, a higher density would mean design trade-offs and more generous manufacturing tolerances.)
From a physics perspective, the higher megapixel sensor will collect the same amount of light spread over a more dense area. This means that the resolution of the captured light will be higher, but each single pixel will get less overall light.
So imagine we have 40 photons of light:
More Pixels Less Pixels
----------- -----------
1 2 1 5
2 6 2 3 11 11
1 9 0 1 15 3
4 1 1 1
When you zoom in to the individual pixels, the higher-resolution sensor will appear more noisy. This can be mitigated by pixel binning, which groups (or “bins”) those physical pixels into larger, virtual ones—essentially mimicking the lower-resolution sensor. Software can get crafty and try to use some more tricks to de-noise it without ruining the sharpness, though. Or if you could sit completely still for a few seconds, you could significantly lower the ISO and get a better average for each pixel.
Strictly from a physics perspective (and assuming the sensors are the same overall quality), higher megapixel sensors are better simply because you can capture more detail and end up with similar quality when you scale the picture down to whatever you’re comparing it against. More detail never hurts.
… Except when it does. Unless you save your photos as RAW (which take a massice amount of space), they’re going to be compressed into a lossy image format like JPEG. And the lovely thing about JPEG, is that it takes advantage of human vision to strip away visual information that we generally wouldn’t perceive, like slight color changes and high frequency details (like noise!)
And you can probably see where this is going: the way that the photo is encoded and stored destroys data that would have otherwise ensured you could eventually create a comparable (or better) photo. Luckily, though, the image is pre-processed by the camera software before encoding it as a JPEG, applying some of those quality-improving tricks before the data is lost. That leaves you at the mercy of the manufacturer’s software, however.
In summary: more megapixels is better in theory. In practice, bad software and image compression negate the advantages that a higher resolution provides, and higher-density sensors likely mean lower-quality data. Also, don’t expect more megapixels to mean better zoom. You would need an actual lense for that.
It’s a “feature,” in fact…
Under What to expect on this support page, it says:
The phone branding, network configuration, carrier features, and system apps will be different based on the SIM card you insert or the carrier linked to the eSIM.
The new carrier’s settings menus will be applied.
The previous carrier’s apps will be disabled.
The correct approach from a UX perspective would have been to display an out-of-box experience wizard that gives the user an option to either use the recommended defaults, or customize what gets installed.
Unfortunately, many manufacturers don’t do that, and just install the apps unconditionally and with system-level permissions. And even if they did, it’s likely that many of the carrier apps will either have a manifest value that requires them to be installed, be unlabeled (e.g. com.example.carrier.msm.mdm.MDM), or misleadingly named to appear essential (e.g. “Mobile Services Manager”).
I bought an unlocked phone directly from the manufacturer and still didn’t get the choice.
Inserting a SIM card wiped the phone and provisioned it, installing all sorts of carrier-provided apps with system-level permissions.
As far as I’ve found, there’s a few possible solutions:
Unlock the bootloader and install a custom ROM that doesn’t automatically install carrier-provided apps. (Warning: This will blow the E-fuse on Samsung devices, disabling biometrics and other features provided by their proprietary HSM).
Manually disable the apps after they’re forcibly installed for you. Install adb on a computer and use pm disable-user --user 0 the.app.package on every app you don’t want. If your OEM ROM is particularly scummy, it might go out of its way to periodically re-enable some of them, though.
Find a SIM card for a carrier that doesn’t install any apps, then insert that into a fresh phone and hope that the phone doesn’t adopt the new carrier’s apps (or wipe the phone) when you insert your actual SIM.
Can’t have a runtime error if you don’t have a compiled binary *taps forehead*
(For the record, I say this as someone who enjoys Rust)