When I see comments like yours, I have to double take to see if it is an troll comment or not.
How can you not be for Palestinian people?
They have been driven out of their land since 1948
Been oppressed ever since being forced to leave their homeland
Been murdered, ridiculed, victimized ever since then
All country presidents seems to be okay with it
How can someone even be for Israel government with all this knowledge?
Certainly what Hamas did is wrong and I condemn it however if you are being oppressed for 70+ years, at one point, you’ll seriously lose it and fight back. Realize Hamas was made in 1987 to fight for Palestinian lives, if Israel didn’t just steal land, oppress Palestinian people and keep doing that for so long - Hamas might not even have existed.
What Hamas did on 7 October, Israel have been doing that for decades upon decades to the Palestinian people and no one cared. Now it’s a country with lots of money, artillery and such - everyone cares all of a ‘sudden’.
It’s always good when people demonstrate their lack of knowledge on the subject.
Your oversimplification of the history of the region, and history while presenting it like a proud child holding a mud pie is core to the disagreements here.
You ignore all the Palestinian Jews who were there even when the Ottoman Empire ruled the area. Trying to pretend it was some homogenous Arab eutopia with no Jews living there.
You ignore the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Jews who received the same treatment from all the Arab countries who had their land stolen.
That doesn’t make Israeli theft of land okay or legitimate. It’s a crime. But when you’re ignorant to or refuse to acknowledge that the Jews got the same treatment, it does speak to your bias or ignorance of the history–either way.
Being oppressed is pretty much the history of the Jewish diaspora, whether you are looking at Russian and Slavic pogroms, inquisition, holocaust, etc. If you have sympathy for a people who have endured it but not for the jews then I question the sincerity of your sympathy.
Israelis and Jews have been murdered, ridiculed, and victimized as well. Often, with the pro-hamas crowd, you will find the “but but it’s disproportionate,” demonstrating their rational for not caring about this as a principal but only as an Anti-Israel talking point. Who killed more isn’t a principled argument, it’s a talking point for an agenda.
It’s horrible and wrong when the world and the Israelis do it to Palestian Arabs, and it’s wrong when done to Israelis. The difference is that a decent person condemns it all on principal, not selectively uses it as a way to be anti-israeli or anti-jewish.
And yes, the world believes that Israel has a right to exist. Most of the radical left on Lemmy does not. That’s part of why the world response confused them. Most nations feel that after you suffer a horrific terrorist attack and war crimes that you have a right to defend yourself.
Instead, the pro-Hamas crowd on here spends their time trying to deny the atrocities of Hamas, Iran, and Hezbollah on the 7th. They act like the current escalation is unprovoked and throw out qanaon like conspiracies as to why none of it happened.
When Israel is doing right now, it is a war crime. Let’s be really clear. And they’ve been committing them for way longer than this conflict. Collective punishment of civilians IS A WAR CRIME, not just now but months ago, years ago, etc. Their government officials should be tried at the ICC for these crimes.
War crimes from one side are not a defense for committing war crimes. And when you frame something like “I condemn hamas… BUT”, or “Hamas should have murdered all those civilians, HOWEVER”, that is exactly what people are doing. Just look at your own lengthy, I condem the 7th followed by a long apologists explanation as to why Israel deserved it. Nobody deserved that. It’s easy, you can say that and still be for the Palestinian civilians having homes and land and human dignity and freedom from Israel’s crimes.
Your explanation of Hamas’ origins is also either an outright fabrication or just ignorance. They came to power, really came to power by working with Bibi who was trying to unseat Perez. A two state solution looked very likely, and Perez and Arafat could have made it happen. Perez was in the lead, and Israel was still backing two states.
At that time, Hamas waged a campaign of suicide bombings and bombed buses full of civilians. This delivered a less than 1% victory margin to Bibi, who would have lost otherwise. Arafat helped Hamas by not cracking down on them as Israel was asking (bc it was politically unpopular with the Palestinians), and inadvertently helped them get rid of Perez, two state, and ironically himself from leadership. Bibi exists because Hamas wanted him there.
Hamas and Bibis partnership is specifically why there’s no two states now and will likely never be after the 7th.
At the time of the election, Israel had pulled out of many territories and granted autonomy to them, they had their own government and armed police forces and more. Those police forces ended up using their armaments against Israelis. It was going better than it had in a long time.
And all the while, I might add that the radical Israeli settlers were working towards Hamas’ goals as well. A filthy radical assassinated Rabin, had he not a two state would definitely have happened and happened even faster. Perez carried on.
Some of the use of Palestinian forces in the autonomus territories was intentionally provoked by Israeli settlers. Just like Israel has a right to defend itself, so did the Palestinians when radical settlers provoked them.
I could go on and explain more, but this is just going to get downvoted to hell by the pro hamas crowd and anti semites on here. And that’s the closing point.
The use of the excuse that “people will call me anti-semtic if I’m anti-semtic on here” is crazy. Radical left is happily shielding anti-semites the same way Hamas uses civilians as a shield. They’re in their midst, and considering world persecution and prevalence of anti-semitism it isn’t unreasonable to question. To counter it, you can do things like say Oct 7th was a terrorist attack, war crimes, and crimes against humanity, nothing justifies it. That should help clarify if you’re a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Be loudly vocally against Hamas and dont apologize for them by pretending they were for saving Palestian lives. That’s not what they were for ever.
I’ll show you by ending with: Israel’s apartheid is war crimes and crimes against humanity. The current and previous blockades of Gaza are war crimes. There’s never an excuse for war crimes. Israel’s willingness to incur civilian casualties is war crimes. Nothing justifies it, ever.
I’m not pro Israel or pro Hamas, but I am anti-war crimes on principal. It’s why I happily soak up the downvotes all the time from the pro-Hamas crowd on here.
It’s why I happily soak up the downvotes all the time from the pro-Hamas crowd on here.
The second part of this sentence is likely why you’re downvoted. The whole “everyone who disagress with me is pro-Hamas / anti-semitic” is tiring, disingenuous, shoves aside any possible good faith discussion, and I’d argue it’s actually destructive as it muddies the definition of these terms. Anti-semite specifically is a term I don’t think people should be throwing around willy nilly, but by this point, 99% of the time I see it used in online discourse it describes someone who doesn’t think mass civilian bombings are OK, and maybe 1% actual anti-semites. It’s basically the right wing version of some “leftists” calling people fascists for having the slightest right of center opinion.
I usually either scroll past any mention of these or downvote and move on because it’s too tiring to devote time to people who, most of the time, are arguing in bad faith.
I appreciate your reply very much. We disagree, but I understand what you’re saying and certainly admit it is debatable.
I don’t think anybody who disagrees with me is pro-Hamas at all. And I definitely think Anti-Israeli government stances are legitimate. I think Bibi and many in his government are war criminals.
But there’s certainly many here on Lemmy who are anti-Jew and anti-Israeli and who always reply to Hamas’s crimes, either with whataboutisms, lies, or strawman, etc. Their comment histories are usually pretty clear. I regularly see calls for Israel’s destruction and decrying its right to exist on the world politics group. It’s accepted and welcomed there.
I appreciate you not just scrolling by and explaining earnestly and with good faith. And FWIW, I like your version lots better, but it’s just not my personal experience here in the Lemmy community.
Also, there’s a serious instant knee jerk to claim that any criticism or disagreement of pro-hamas propaganda is “playing the antisemitism card”. Yes, I think Bibi lovers do it in bad faith, but I see lots of actual antisemtic comments and discourse that do deserve the label. And all of ut is decried as pro-israeli proaganda, in very bad faith.
One of the issues rhe hypersensitivity brings is actual antisemites hide behind radicalized lefties like hamas hides behind civilians. And lack of acknowledging who they’re in bed with or lack of awareness of it is dangerous and at times duplicitous.
I get what you mean. My pet peeve is more with “real life” people. I don’t spend that much time on Lemmy anymore because, well, in a lot of ways it’s a lot like the worst parts of Reddit. And, in general, I’ve started to notice that “internet opinions” hardly ever represent what I see when I talk to real life people. So I tend to not care much about anything coming out of Lemmy, Reddit, Twitter, etc, as I find it’s often the loud very tiny minority.
But I have the habit of reading opinion pieces on a couple of national newspapers, and I’ve noticed the “you’re an anti-semite if you disagree with me” pattern a lot. Most opinion pieces by usually left leaning political writers have been more level headed than I actually expected them to be - in the sense that there’s a couple of them who usually hold far more extreme positions on pretty much everything else and have been surprisingly “center” on this issue. Whereas on the right, a few people who I would say are usually fairly moderate and level headed have gone hard on the “the left actually hates jews, they don’t care about civilians” trope. And it’s very confusing to me because I have yet to find any actual left leaning person who’s any relevant in my country’s political scene actively sharing that discourse. So it all feels like baseless deflection. It was the kind of behavior I expected out of Reddit - it’s been the case for years I feel that in most bigger subreddits any critique of Israel’s government would immediately make you an honorary anti-semite. Though that seems to have changed a bit after we entered the “Bibi is trying to turn Israel into a dictatorship” arc and he’s not seen as the savior of Israel anymore. But it weirds me out to see these talking points coming out of real life political commentators who I would usually expect to be at least somewhat level headed. In general, with exceptions from the usual crazies and outside places like Twitter, I have yet to find the big leftist pro-Hamas discourse everyone seems to pretend is all around.
When I see comments like yours, I have to double take to see if it is an troll comment or not.
How can you not be for Palestinian people?
How can someone even be for Israel government with all this knowledge?
Certainly what Hamas did is wrong and I condemn it however if you are being oppressed for 70+ years, at one point, you’ll seriously lose it and fight back. Realize Hamas was made in 1987 to fight for Palestinian lives, if Israel didn’t just steal land, oppress Palestinian people and keep doing that for so long - Hamas might not even have existed.
What Hamas did on 7 October, Israel have been doing that for decades upon decades to the Palestinian people and no one cared. Now it’s a country with lots of money, artillery and such - everyone cares all of a ‘sudden’.
It’s always good when people demonstrate their lack of knowledge on the subject.
Your oversimplification of the history of the region, and history while presenting it like a proud child holding a mud pie is core to the disagreements here.
You ignore all the Palestinian Jews who were there even when the Ottoman Empire ruled the area. Trying to pretend it was some homogenous Arab eutopia with no Jews living there.
You ignore the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Jews who received the same treatment from all the Arab countries who had their land stolen.
That doesn’t make Israeli theft of land okay or legitimate. It’s a crime. But when you’re ignorant to or refuse to acknowledge that the Jews got the same treatment, it does speak to your bias or ignorance of the history–either way.
Being oppressed is pretty much the history of the Jewish diaspora, whether you are looking at Russian and Slavic pogroms, inquisition, holocaust, etc. If you have sympathy for a people who have endured it but not for the jews then I question the sincerity of your sympathy.
Israelis and Jews have been murdered, ridiculed, and victimized as well. Often, with the pro-hamas crowd, you will find the “but but it’s disproportionate,” demonstrating their rational for not caring about this as a principal but only as an Anti-Israel talking point. Who killed more isn’t a principled argument, it’s a talking point for an agenda.
It’s horrible and wrong when the world and the Israelis do it to Palestian Arabs, and it’s wrong when done to Israelis. The difference is that a decent person condemns it all on principal, not selectively uses it as a way to be anti-israeli or anti-jewish.
And yes, the world believes that Israel has a right to exist. Most of the radical left on Lemmy does not. That’s part of why the world response confused them. Most nations feel that after you suffer a horrific terrorist attack and war crimes that you have a right to defend yourself.
Instead, the pro-Hamas crowd on here spends their time trying to deny the atrocities of Hamas, Iran, and Hezbollah on the 7th. They act like the current escalation is unprovoked and throw out qanaon like conspiracies as to why none of it happened.
When Israel is doing right now, it is a war crime. Let’s be really clear. And they’ve been committing them for way longer than this conflict. Collective punishment of civilians IS A WAR CRIME, not just now but months ago, years ago, etc. Their government officials should be tried at the ICC for these crimes.
War crimes from one side are not a defense for committing war crimes. And when you frame something like “I condemn hamas… BUT”, or “Hamas should have murdered all those civilians, HOWEVER”, that is exactly what people are doing. Just look at your own lengthy, I condem the 7th followed by a long apologists explanation as to why Israel deserved it. Nobody deserved that. It’s easy, you can say that and still be for the Palestinian civilians having homes and land and human dignity and freedom from Israel’s crimes.
Your explanation of Hamas’ origins is also either an outright fabrication or just ignorance. They came to power, really came to power by working with Bibi who was trying to unseat Perez. A two state solution looked very likely, and Perez and Arafat could have made it happen. Perez was in the lead, and Israel was still backing two states.
At that time, Hamas waged a campaign of suicide bombings and bombed buses full of civilians. This delivered a less than 1% victory margin to Bibi, who would have lost otherwise. Arafat helped Hamas by not cracking down on them as Israel was asking (bc it was politically unpopular with the Palestinians), and inadvertently helped them get rid of Perez, two state, and ironically himself from leadership. Bibi exists because Hamas wanted him there.
Hamas and Bibis partnership is specifically why there’s no two states now and will likely never be after the 7th.
At the time of the election, Israel had pulled out of many territories and granted autonomy to them, they had their own government and armed police forces and more. Those police forces ended up using their armaments against Israelis. It was going better than it had in a long time.
And all the while, I might add that the radical Israeli settlers were working towards Hamas’ goals as well. A filthy radical assassinated Rabin, had he not a two state would definitely have happened and happened even faster. Perez carried on.
Some of the use of Palestinian forces in the autonomus territories was intentionally provoked by Israeli settlers. Just like Israel has a right to defend itself, so did the Palestinians when radical settlers provoked them.
I could go on and explain more, but this is just going to get downvoted to hell by the pro hamas crowd and anti semites on here. And that’s the closing point.
The use of the excuse that “people will call me anti-semtic if I’m anti-semtic on here” is crazy. Radical left is happily shielding anti-semites the same way Hamas uses civilians as a shield. They’re in their midst, and considering world persecution and prevalence of anti-semitism it isn’t unreasonable to question. To counter it, you can do things like say Oct 7th was a terrorist attack, war crimes, and crimes against humanity, nothing justifies it. That should help clarify if you’re a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Be loudly vocally against Hamas and dont apologize for them by pretending they were for saving Palestian lives. That’s not what they were for ever.
I’ll show you by ending with: Israel’s apartheid is war crimes and crimes against humanity. The current and previous blockades of Gaza are war crimes. There’s never an excuse for war crimes. Israel’s willingness to incur civilian casualties is war crimes. Nothing justifies it, ever.
I’m not pro Israel or pro Hamas, but I am anti-war crimes on principal. It’s why I happily soak up the downvotes all the time from the pro-Hamas crowd on here.
The second part of this sentence is likely why you’re downvoted. The whole “everyone who disagress with me is pro-Hamas / anti-semitic” is tiring, disingenuous, shoves aside any possible good faith discussion, and I’d argue it’s actually destructive as it muddies the definition of these terms. Anti-semite specifically is a term I don’t think people should be throwing around willy nilly, but by this point, 99% of the time I see it used in online discourse it describes someone who doesn’t think mass civilian bombings are OK, and maybe 1% actual anti-semites. It’s basically the right wing version of some “leftists” calling people fascists for having the slightest right of center opinion.
I usually either scroll past any mention of these or downvote and move on because it’s too tiring to devote time to people who, most of the time, are arguing in bad faith.
I appreciate your reply very much. We disagree, but I understand what you’re saying and certainly admit it is debatable.
I don’t think anybody who disagrees with me is pro-Hamas at all. And I definitely think Anti-Israeli government stances are legitimate. I think Bibi and many in his government are war criminals.
But there’s certainly many here on Lemmy who are anti-Jew and anti-Israeli and who always reply to Hamas’s crimes, either with whataboutisms, lies, or strawman, etc. Their comment histories are usually pretty clear. I regularly see calls for Israel’s destruction and decrying its right to exist on the world politics group. It’s accepted and welcomed there.
I appreciate you not just scrolling by and explaining earnestly and with good faith. And FWIW, I like your version lots better, but it’s just not my personal experience here in the Lemmy community.
Also, there’s a serious instant knee jerk to claim that any criticism or disagreement of pro-hamas propaganda is “playing the antisemitism card”. Yes, I think Bibi lovers do it in bad faith, but I see lots of actual antisemtic comments and discourse that do deserve the label. And all of ut is decried as pro-israeli proaganda, in very bad faith.
One of the issues rhe hypersensitivity brings is actual antisemites hide behind radicalized lefties like hamas hides behind civilians. And lack of acknowledging who they’re in bed with or lack of awareness of it is dangerous and at times duplicitous.
Again, thanks for the thoughtful reply.
I get what you mean. My pet peeve is more with “real life” people. I don’t spend that much time on Lemmy anymore because, well, in a lot of ways it’s a lot like the worst parts of Reddit. And, in general, I’ve started to notice that “internet opinions” hardly ever represent what I see when I talk to real life people. So I tend to not care much about anything coming out of Lemmy, Reddit, Twitter, etc, as I find it’s often the loud very tiny minority.
But I have the habit of reading opinion pieces on a couple of national newspapers, and I’ve noticed the “you’re an anti-semite if you disagree with me” pattern a lot. Most opinion pieces by usually left leaning political writers have been more level headed than I actually expected them to be - in the sense that there’s a couple of them who usually hold far more extreme positions on pretty much everything else and have been surprisingly “center” on this issue. Whereas on the right, a few people who I would say are usually fairly moderate and level headed have gone hard on the “the left actually hates jews, they don’t care about civilians” trope. And it’s very confusing to me because I have yet to find any actual left leaning person who’s any relevant in my country’s political scene actively sharing that discourse. So it all feels like baseless deflection. It was the kind of behavior I expected out of Reddit - it’s been the case for years I feel that in most bigger subreddits any critique of Israel’s government would immediately make you an honorary anti-semite. Though that seems to have changed a bit after we entered the “Bibi is trying to turn Israel into a dictatorship” arc and he’s not seen as the savior of Israel anymore. But it weirds me out to see these talking points coming out of real life political commentators who I would usually expect to be at least somewhat level headed. In general, with exceptions from the usual crazies and outside places like Twitter, I have yet to find the big leftist pro-Hamas discourse everyone seems to pretend is all around.