Yes there is an objectively right side, 1 side may not be perfect but there is 1 side that is evil- the Islamic fascists.
Like 9/11, yes america has made foreign policy errors however to hijack planes and crash them into buildings is evil. Yes they celebrated in Palestine and throughout the Arab world and civilians died hunting down al qaeda but it was appropriate to do.
If you are American you are living on colonized land, you are considered evil by the Islamic fascists, do you think someone is justified to break onto house and stab you, to target you as infidel explicitly. That is not the same as responding to that attack and the evil terrorist is hiding behind civilians (who support him) and them being killed despite taking numerous steps to avoid them.
The Islamic fascists are objectively wrong, they believe that a medieval warlords poetry comes from God and kill anyone that disagree, ISIS did this things in Kurdistan, just killing everyone and taking sex slaves. They are objectively evil and wrong and it is an intellectual and moral weakness if you can’t distinguish this
I don’t think you’ll find many people on lemmy who will agree that the US is objectively right in virtually any conflict. I remember even on the day 9/11 was happening people were saying how this was the chicken coming home to roost. Civilians don’t deserve any of this, but the actions of their country – against their will – started a chain reaction that lead to this terrorist attack.
That’s not to excuse terrorist acts. But they don’t come out of nowhere - they always feed on some legitimate grievance, or else they would have no recruits.
Yeah some people did cheer 9/11 but these are morally weak people.
If Israel killed 2 million gazans tomorrow they could say look at what they did and I don’t think the people who said the 9/11 terrorists had their reason would endorse killing 2 million Muslims.
This is what moral reasoning is, just because 1 side isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that the other side is evil or wrong.
You can see that the Islamic fascists rely obscuring issues, propaganda, yelling slogans in unison.
To parse facts is difficult but it is not difficult to see that islam is a fascist ideaology unwilling to be peaceful and Israel has made numerous steps and concessions to peace.
You could say that ISIS is justified to genocide the kurds for some reason, you can say the Nazis were justified, that Germany was decimated… It doesn’t occur in a vacuum, but then to turn around and be sympathetic to the Nazis who were bombed? Yeah many people are, they see the Nazis as justified and lament their oppression, but they are idiots.
You seem to assume that there are two possible positions: Hamas must be supported in what they do to Israelis, or the Israeli government must be supported in what they do to Palestinians. This dichotomy is bullshit. The Israeli government can theoretically be changed through democracy to put people that want to coexist with Palestinians in power. Palestine could theoretically have an anti-Hamas organization come to power who work towards coexistence.
However, the campaign of terror that Israel has waged against Palestinians for decades makes it hard for them to want coexistence. Conversely, the threat of Hamas feeds Islamophobic sentiment in Israel, allowing wannabe fascists like Bibi to gain power.
Bibi actually fucked up by not preparing for the attack and not seeing it coming in the first place. Israelis are pissed and it’s predicted that Netanyahu will lose power when things quiet down. Unfortunately, this gives the current government the perverse incentive to continually escalate the war for as long as possible while showing strength against Hamas in the hopes that right wing Israelis forgive them for their incompetence.
To change Israelis leadership, foreigners who want peace should encourage Israel to deescalate the war, and one way to do that might be to prevent both sides from getting the weapons needed to prolong the war. We should sanction Hamas and help Israel stop weapons flow into Gaza, but we should also not give Israel any weapons that fuel their attacks with high collateral damage. No artillery, try to end the blockade of essential resources by helping to police imports, and other techniques to keep Israel from widening the war. Tell them that they will not receive support if they encourage clashes with foreign adversaries. Tell them to only defend settlements in the West Bank and not carry out preemptive attacks.
I doubt Biden will do enough to deescalate, but there is a possibility that he will try to avoid a broader war. The US congress will totally give terrible weapons to Israel with bipartisan support, only helping Netanyahu stay in power.
What’s unforgivable about the response from the West is that many, like you, conflate the desire for peace with support for Hamas. It doesn’t matter if you say Hamas are fascists that must be destroyed, you have to believe that killing Palestinians is the only solution. The only way for the IDF’s strategy to destroy Hamas to work, is if they kill all Palestinians in the West Bank. They could kill 10k, 100k, 1 million, or even 2 million Gazans, but the remaining Palestinians will be no less radicalized. Hell, they’ll probably be even more radicalized than before.
The only way to kill Hamas without genocide is to give Gazans a serious way to improve their conditions. Israel should give billions to the most benevolent Palestinian organizations to invest in the country. They could give Palestinians voting rights and equal access to social services, effectively turning what is currently Isreal into a secular, federal state. The only other way that Israelis could get rid of Hamas is to turn Palestine into a maximally authoritarian police state, and in addition to being very expensive, they’ll probably have settlers push Palestinians out over time, resulting in a slower genocide.
The actual dichotomy isn’t Netanyahu or Hamas, it’s financially cheap genocide, or expensive peace, with slow and expensive genocide existing in between. Not all problems are best solved through violence.
I don’t think you know or understand the history of the conflict at all.
As I’ve said in other comments, and these are the simple facts of the conflict- that Israel has always been willing to and wanted to live in peace with Palestinians, that they accepted then 1948 partition, that they didn’t control the WB and Gaza until the 1967 war, have offered the pals states numerous times and they arabs live freely in Israel. OTOH pals have been explicit that there can be no Jewish state on any form, no Jewish presence, and vowed to fight to the death against it. These are the facts. The Jews, who are the natives of the land have made numerous concessions and the arabs who are from other places have not made any concessions from their demands which is absolute Islamic fascism.
Every ‘campaign’ of the Israelis to restrict Palestinians has been the result of massive terror campaigns which the pals have vowed to as long as Israel exists.
Maybe not every response of Israel has been exactly measured but the genesis of the conflict is clear, that the Islamic fascist are not willing to accept a non Muslim presence in any form, and they are the occupiers, Jews are the natives of the land. Everyone knows that Jerusalem, Hebron, nazereth etc… Are all cities built by Jews.
West bank and Gaza are given a ton of aid and if they accepted a state would be living in wealth, living well is not their objective or at least not the objective of the government. They say explicitly they desire death, they they love death more than Jews love life.
You are intellectually weak and have no moral spine
I’m sorry you can’t view people as anything more than a horde. It must be hard to interact with children from an out group. They may look cute and innocent, but they’re just future enemies!
I do view people as individuals and some people are individuals and some people just function as hordes. In some places that is greater proportion of people who are individuals as opposed to hordes than in other places.
And Gaza, a place where the average age is 18, would be a place with more horde members than individuals? Honestly, even if a place has large majorities that support terrible shit, killing civilians at such a high rate will necessarily kill innocents and ethical people. Even if 90% hate Jews more than they love life, 10% don’t. Hundreds of adults who wanted peace have probably been killed by Israel since Hamas’ attack, while over a thousand children too young to form an opinion have also probably died. Israel should stop the blockade at the very least. Famine and dehydration will kill the most vulnerable first, and children will die far sooner than Hamas members. It just isn’t right.
Yes more should be done to remedy gaza, and there are many terrible situations around the world where the give do terrible things. They let aid into Gaza but this is a war and there are hard choices in any war, you definitely want to avoid war.
And it is the pals who have perpetuated this endless war, if they accepted a Jewish state in any form they’d be living in peace and prosperity with no displacement. Jews are the natives people of the land and were refugees with nowhere to go during WW2. The Arabs sided with the Nazis in WW2.
Look up the 1948 partition, the size of the Jewish state which would not result in any pal displacement , most arbas living in aan Arab state and a small amount in a Jewish state.
They rejected that, they went to war against the premise of any Jewish sovereignty in the land to which they are unobjectively native. They have fought Israel in the most barbaric way only targeting civilians for decades while Israel makes measured responses. The pals priority is to fight Israel any way it can, use pals as human shields for propaganda, because they follow a fanatical , fascist , hateful religion which believes the entire world should submit to the rule of God transmitted through the quaran. That is what islam means, submission. They will fight to the death in every way. They are evil.
Israel didn’t do enough to avoid war. The Israeli government didn’t see the Hamas attack coming, or didn’t prepare for it. Islam is not indisputably fascist. Most importantly, the current IDF strategy to destroy Hamas won’t work. The only way it can realistically succeed is through genocide or the expulsion of Palestinians, and that is not a good solution.
They definitely made mistakes. For years hamas has been firing hundreds of rockets every day. You know that rocket that hit the hospital parking lot they blamed on Israel and killed so many people, they fire dozens of those at Israel everyday and the expectation is Israel shoots them down with iron dome. In what other country in the world do you have daily indiscriminate rocket attacks ? What would Americas response to daily rocket attacks be ?
Most Islamic countries are facist- they are dictatorships with non elections and no allowed opposition. Religious morality is enforced, women are killed for not wearing their scarfs and of course homosexuals are killed.
Unfortunately it’s not a good situation no matter what
Yes there is an objectively right side, 1 side may not be perfect but there is 1 side that is evil- the Islamic fascists.
Like 9/11, yes america has made foreign policy errors however to hijack planes and crash them into buildings is evil. Yes they celebrated in Palestine and throughout the Arab world and civilians died hunting down al qaeda but it was appropriate to do.
If you are American you are living on colonized land, you are considered evil by the Islamic fascists, do you think someone is justified to break onto house and stab you, to target you as infidel explicitly. That is not the same as responding to that attack and the evil terrorist is hiding behind civilians (who support him) and them being killed despite taking numerous steps to avoid them.
The Islamic fascists are objectively wrong, they believe that a medieval warlords poetry comes from God and kill anyone that disagree, ISIS did this things in Kurdistan, just killing everyone and taking sex slaves. They are objectively evil and wrong and it is an intellectual and moral weakness if you can’t distinguish this
I don’t think you’ll find many people on lemmy who will agree that the US is objectively right in virtually any conflict. I remember even on the day 9/11 was happening people were saying how this was the chicken coming home to roost. Civilians don’t deserve any of this, but the actions of their country – against their will – started a chain reaction that lead to this terrorist attack.
That’s not to excuse terrorist acts. But they don’t come out of nowhere - they always feed on some legitimate grievance, or else they would have no recruits.
Yeah some people did cheer 9/11 but these are morally weak people.
If Israel killed 2 million gazans tomorrow they could say look at what they did and I don’t think the people who said the 9/11 terrorists had their reason would endorse killing 2 million Muslims.
This is what moral reasoning is, just because 1 side isn’t perfect doesn’t mean that the other side is evil or wrong.
You can see that the Islamic fascists rely obscuring issues, propaganda, yelling slogans in unison.
To parse facts is difficult but it is not difficult to see that islam is a fascist ideaology unwilling to be peaceful and Israel has made numerous steps and concessions to peace.
You could say that ISIS is justified to genocide the kurds for some reason, you can say the Nazis were justified, that Germany was decimated… It doesn’t occur in a vacuum, but then to turn around and be sympathetic to the Nazis who were bombed? Yeah many people are, they see the Nazis as justified and lament their oppression, but they are idiots.
Ah yes, yelling slogans in unison, only Islamists would do that oh wait.
You seem to assume that there are two possible positions: Hamas must be supported in what they do to Israelis, or the Israeli government must be supported in what they do to Palestinians. This dichotomy is bullshit. The Israeli government can theoretically be changed through democracy to put people that want to coexist with Palestinians in power. Palestine could theoretically have an anti-Hamas organization come to power who work towards coexistence.
However, the campaign of terror that Israel has waged against Palestinians for decades makes it hard for them to want coexistence. Conversely, the threat of Hamas feeds Islamophobic sentiment in Israel, allowing wannabe fascists like Bibi to gain power.
Bibi actually fucked up by not preparing for the attack and not seeing it coming in the first place. Israelis are pissed and it’s predicted that Netanyahu will lose power when things quiet down. Unfortunately, this gives the current government the perverse incentive to continually escalate the war for as long as possible while showing strength against Hamas in the hopes that right wing Israelis forgive them for their incompetence.
To change Israelis leadership, foreigners who want peace should encourage Israel to deescalate the war, and one way to do that might be to prevent both sides from getting the weapons needed to prolong the war. We should sanction Hamas and help Israel stop weapons flow into Gaza, but we should also not give Israel any weapons that fuel their attacks with high collateral damage. No artillery, try to end the blockade of essential resources by helping to police imports, and other techniques to keep Israel from widening the war. Tell them that they will not receive support if they encourage clashes with foreign adversaries. Tell them to only defend settlements in the West Bank and not carry out preemptive attacks.
I doubt Biden will do enough to deescalate, but there is a possibility that he will try to avoid a broader war. The US congress will totally give terrible weapons to Israel with bipartisan support, only helping Netanyahu stay in power.
What’s unforgivable about the response from the West is that many, like you, conflate the desire for peace with support for Hamas. It doesn’t matter if you say Hamas are fascists that must be destroyed, you have to believe that killing Palestinians is the only solution. The only way for the IDF’s strategy to destroy Hamas to work, is if they kill all Palestinians in the West Bank. They could kill 10k, 100k, 1 million, or even 2 million Gazans, but the remaining Palestinians will be no less radicalized. Hell, they’ll probably be even more radicalized than before.
The only way to kill Hamas without genocide is to give Gazans a serious way to improve their conditions. Israel should give billions to the most benevolent Palestinian organizations to invest in the country. They could give Palestinians voting rights and equal access to social services, effectively turning what is currently Isreal into a secular, federal state. The only other way that Israelis could get rid of Hamas is to turn Palestine into a maximally authoritarian police state, and in addition to being very expensive, they’ll probably have settlers push Palestinians out over time, resulting in a slower genocide.
The actual dichotomy isn’t Netanyahu or Hamas, it’s financially cheap genocide, or expensive peace, with slow and expensive genocide existing in between. Not all problems are best solved through violence.
I don’t think you know or understand the history of the conflict at all.
As I’ve said in other comments, and these are the simple facts of the conflict- that Israel has always been willing to and wanted to live in peace with Palestinians, that they accepted then 1948 partition, that they didn’t control the WB and Gaza until the 1967 war, have offered the pals states numerous times and they arabs live freely in Israel. OTOH pals have been explicit that there can be no Jewish state on any form, no Jewish presence, and vowed to fight to the death against it. These are the facts. The Jews, who are the natives of the land have made numerous concessions and the arabs who are from other places have not made any concessions from their demands which is absolute Islamic fascism.
Every ‘campaign’ of the Israelis to restrict Palestinians has been the result of massive terror campaigns which the pals have vowed to as long as Israel exists.
Maybe not every response of Israel has been exactly measured but the genesis of the conflict is clear, that the Islamic fascist are not willing to accept a non Muslim presence in any form, and they are the occupiers, Jews are the natives of the land. Everyone knows that Jerusalem, Hebron, nazereth etc… Are all cities built by Jews.
West bank and Gaza are given a ton of aid and if they accepted a state would be living in wealth, living well is not their objective or at least not the objective of the government. They say explicitly they desire death, they they love death more than Jews love life.
You are intellectually weak and have no moral spine
🤮
I’m sorry you can’t view people as anything more than a horde. It must be hard to interact with children from an out group. They may look cute and innocent, but they’re just future enemies!
So sad that the German should be a fascist but espouse it under the cover of Jews through zionism.
I do view people as individuals and some people are individuals and some people just function as hordes. In some places that is greater proportion of people who are individuals as opposed to hordes than in other places.
And Gaza, a place where the average age is 18, would be a place with more horde members than individuals? Honestly, even if a place has large majorities that support terrible shit, killing civilians at such a high rate will necessarily kill innocents and ethical people. Even if 90% hate Jews more than they love life, 10% don’t. Hundreds of adults who wanted peace have probably been killed by Israel since Hamas’ attack, while over a thousand children too young to form an opinion have also probably died. Israel should stop the blockade at the very least. Famine and dehydration will kill the most vulnerable first, and children will die far sooner than Hamas members. It just isn’t right.
Yes more should be done to remedy gaza, and there are many terrible situations around the world where the give do terrible things. They let aid into Gaza but this is a war and there are hard choices in any war, you definitely want to avoid war.
And it is the pals who have perpetuated this endless war, if they accepted a Jewish state in any form they’d be living in peace and prosperity with no displacement. Jews are the natives people of the land and were refugees with nowhere to go during WW2. The Arabs sided with the Nazis in WW2.
Look up the 1948 partition, the size of the Jewish state which would not result in any pal displacement , most arbas living in aan Arab state and a small amount in a Jewish state.
They rejected that, they went to war against the premise of any Jewish sovereignty in the land to which they are unobjectively native. They have fought Israel in the most barbaric way only targeting civilians for decades while Israel makes measured responses. The pals priority is to fight Israel any way it can, use pals as human shields for propaganda, because they follow a fanatical , fascist , hateful religion which believes the entire world should submit to the rule of God transmitted through the quaran. That is what islam means, submission. They will fight to the death in every way. They are evil.
Israel didn’t do enough to avoid war. The Israeli government didn’t see the Hamas attack coming, or didn’t prepare for it. Islam is not indisputably fascist. Most importantly, the current IDF strategy to destroy Hamas won’t work. The only way it can realistically succeed is through genocide or the expulsion of Palestinians, and that is not a good solution.
They definitely made mistakes. For years hamas has been firing hundreds of rockets every day. You know that rocket that hit the hospital parking lot they blamed on Israel and killed so many people, they fire dozens of those at Israel everyday and the expectation is Israel shoots them down with iron dome. In what other country in the world do you have daily indiscriminate rocket attacks ? What would Americas response to daily rocket attacks be ?
Most Islamic countries are facist- they are dictatorships with non elections and no allowed opposition. Religious morality is enforced, women are killed for not wearing their scarfs and of course homosexuals are killed.
Unfortunately it’s not a good situation no matter what