NATO aid and their not allowing Ukraine to negotiate peace is what is prolonging this war. We aren’t arguing for all of Ukraine to become Russian territory, which hasn’t been the position of the Russian Federation either.
We would like a negotiated peace that alllows the Donbas republics to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation as they’ve voted to do, and a promise for Ukraine to not become part of NATO. That senario is not the alternative you’re talking about, or what you’re implying we support.
We act as if the land wasnt invaded. The quickest way to achieve peace is for Putin yo withdraw. If the Ukrainians push into Russia after a withdraw, then we are having a different conversation.
You cant claim to believe in peace while in another territory.
No, if he didn’t he would have been couped and the invasion launched anyway. Russia is a dictatorship of capital. Putin answers to the national bourgeoisie of Russia.
Also hypotheticals like that aren’t really relevant to discussing actual exit strategies. Unless you’ve found a way to hop realities.
Then they deserve defeat at the hands of Ukraine. If they want to go into a war on their own volition, then they will have to face to consequences. If that requires NATO might, then so be it. Peace was always an option.
Okay, but it doesn’t seem Ukraine is winning, even with NATO supporting them. So, that means a settlement is probably the best option to save lives all around.
I disagree. The fact that Russia (a supposed world super power) is still there means Ukraine is winning. Russia can’t beat little ol’ Ukraine in a war. I’d say they are in a better position than we think.
No, it means its getting increasingly bloody as more and more Russians and Ukrainians get thrown in the meat grinder without a path to victory for Ukraine. That isn’t winning.
The fact that Russia (a supposed world super power) is still there means Ukraine is winning.
The fact that Russia didnt shock and awe it’s way across a country that has the entirety of NATO backing it means Russia is losing? Lmao ok.
NATO is running out of equipment because it’s supplying Ukraine. Russia is basically taking on NATO and winning, but go off
I disagree, but even if I agreed I’d accept the material reality that is that Ukraine is bleeding people. The have a volksturm going on, it’s a meat grinder, I think they should stop this mindless slaughter
Your way of conceptializing this is so childlike as to be useless.
I want the war in Ukraine to end. I want them to negotiate the best and most obvious solution to this conflict for the parties involved. I want the war to end because then people will not be getting killed.
You want NATO to keep supporting Ukraine, to keep Ukraine away from negotiating. You want this, because… i don’t know why.
I’m saying the Ukrainians should not be expected to negotiate, given that it is their land being invaded. If Putin doesn’t like that, he can pound sand and leave.
If someone invades your house, you wouldn’t just given them a room and bath to have them clam down.
If Putin doesn’t like that, he can pound sand and leave.
Or he can keep grinding Ukrainians that are poisoning their own soil with mines, cluster ammo and depleted uranium because I assure you Ukraine isn’t winning this and even their NATO backers are announcing it now that the “spring counter-offensive” has failed.
If someone invades your house, you wouldn’t just given them a room and bath to have them clam down.
I sure am glad that libs are aware that international relations are complex issues that cannot be boiled down to household analogies. It sure would be frustrating if they tried to make this into some simple black/white scenario with good guys and bad guys separated from material reality and historical context
do you sincerely think Ukraine will be like “it’s all good you were a good sport we’re gonna end the match here, everyone go home” if Russia suddenly decided to up and leave.
Even if Russia were to withdraw to pre-war borders, Ukraine would keep fighting because they insist on taking Crimea which is a large majority Russians who want to be part of Russia.
Crimea has never truly been Ukrainian. It was internally transferred to the Ukrainian SSR in the 1950s, but its population was Russian then and stayed Russian the whole time since. But Ukraine insists on having it back.
And if they did somehow get it back, they would start ethnically cleansing it of Russians. I hope you understand how that’s a bad thing.
How does communism inform your perspective?
NATO aid and their not allowing Ukraine to negotiate peace is what is prolonging this war. We aren’t arguing for all of Ukraine to become Russian territory, which hasn’t been the position of the Russian Federation either.
We would like a negotiated peace that alllows the Donbas republics to leave Ukraine and join the Russian Federation as they’ve voted to do, and a promise for Ukraine to not become part of NATO. That senario is not the alternative you’re talking about, or what you’re implying we support.
We act as if the land wasnt invaded. The quickest way to achieve peace is for Putin yo withdraw. If the Ukrainians push into Russia after a withdraw, then we are having a different conversation.
You cant claim to believe in peace while in another territory.
And then get couped and have the war continue under the leadership of a right wing hardliner
Please look up critiques of great man theory as it seems relevant to your line of thinking on this matter.
So what you are saying is Putin messed up and is in too deep now, no? Seems like the easiest solution would have been to not invade UkrIne
No, if he didn’t he would have been couped and the invasion launched anyway. Russia is a dictatorship of capital. Putin answers to the national bourgeoisie of Russia.
Also hypotheticals like that aren’t really relevant to discussing actual exit strategies. Unless you’ve found a way to hop realities.
Then they deserve defeat at the hands of Ukraine. If they want to go into a war on their own volition, then they will have to face to consequences. If that requires NATO might, then so be it. Peace was always an option.
Okay, but it doesn’t seem Ukraine is winning, even with NATO supporting them. So, that means a settlement is probably the best option to save lives all around.
I disagree. The fact that Russia (a supposed world super power) is still there means Ukraine is winning. Russia can’t beat little ol’ Ukraine in a war. I’d say they are in a better position than we think.
Lol.
No, it means its getting increasingly bloody as more and more Russians and Ukrainians get thrown in the meat grinder without a path to victory for Ukraine. That isn’t winning.
The fact that Russia didnt shock and awe it’s way across a country that has the entirety of NATO backing it means Russia is losing? Lmao ok.
NATO is running out of equipment because it’s supplying Ukraine. Russia is basically taking on NATO and winning, but go off
I disagree, but even if I agreed I’d accept the material reality that is that Ukraine is bleeding people. The have a volksturm going on, it’s a meat grinder, I think they should stop this mindless slaughter
I don’t even know what this means because it has no grounding in reality.
They can’t negotiate peace because they are in a war? How is it possible to resolve this conflict in any realistic way if thats the criteria?
Ideally by standing down. Again, they arent in their own nation.
Lets change perspectives here. Lets go back in time to the British colonialist and the native Americans. Are the natives supposed to just do nothing?
The victims ought not be expected to let the perpetrators continue to harm them
Your way of conceptializing this is so childlike as to be useless.
I want the war in Ukraine to end. I want them to negotiate the best and most obvious solution to this conflict for the parties involved. I want the war to end because then people will not be getting killed.
You want NATO to keep supporting Ukraine, to keep Ukraine away from negotiating. You want this, because… i don’t know why.
I’m saying the Ukrainians should not be expected to negotiate, given that it is their land being invaded. If Putin doesn’t like that, he can pound sand and leave.
If someone invades your house, you wouldn’t just given them a room and bath to have them clam down.
So in your mind they should not negotiate and fight to the last Ukrainian because your conception of geopolitics is a home invasion?
I’m saying Ukraine should take their aid and push Russia back, as they are doing quite well. Russia isn’t doing too hot there right now.
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Or he can keep grinding Ukrainians that are poisoning their own soil with mines, cluster ammo and depleted uranium because I assure you Ukraine isn’t winning this and even their NATO backers are announcing it now that the “spring counter-offensive” has failed.
I sure am glad that libs are aware that international relations are complex issues that cannot be boiled down to household analogies. It sure would be frustrating if they tried to make this into some simple black/white scenario with good guys and bad guys separated from material reality and historical context
do you sincerely think Ukraine will be like “it’s all good you were a good sport we’re gonna end the match here, everyone go home” if Russia suddenly decided to up and leave.
Even if Russia were to withdraw to pre-war borders, Ukraine would keep fighting because they insist on taking Crimea which is a large majority Russians who want to be part of Russia.
Crimea has never truly been Ukrainian. It was internally transferred to the Ukrainian SSR in the 1950s, but its population was Russian then and stayed Russian the whole time since. But Ukraine insists on having it back.
And if they did somehow get it back, they would start ethnically cleansing it of Russians. I hope you understand how that’s a bad thing.