Forces had no direct confrontation with Hamas terrorists who killed hostages; ‘The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible. This news shakes us all,’ says army spokesperson Hagari
Israeli forces discovered the bodies of six hostages in a 65-foot-deep tunnel in Rafah, approximately a kilometer from where hostage Farhan Alkadi was recently freed. The IDF had no precise intelligence on the hostages’ location in recent months but knew there were captives in the sector, leading to a gradual and cautious operation in Rafah since the ground offensive began.
These people might have been alive if we had a ceasefire. But no, Netanyahu’s political career is more important.
Some Palestinian children and international aid workers are going to pay dearly for this.
I read this in this tone…
They could have had all the hostages back in October. Hamas just wanted back the hostages that Israel holds.
And again, they could have had all the hostages back in May.
Netanyahu seems committed to genocide and the hostages are collateral damage.
It’s deranged and I am ashamed our western leaders are cheerleading this.
Hamas didn’t just want hostages back in October, but let’s not get derailed, yes it’s true that the Israelis could have stopped the war at many occasions.
There’s apparently a very rancorous debate in Israeli politics right now about accepting a ceasefire and a lot of people are angry that they’re not making more concessions to get a ceasefire.
It’s blatantly clear that Netanyahu has no desire to rescue the hostages.
Citizens often get angry about the policy of not negotiating with terrorists, especially victims families, but it’s a sound policy though. Saves lives in the long run.
In the 70s the PLO was labelled terrorist and not negotiated with. Now sane Israelis(*) would dream having the PLO as their adversary.
(*) The right wing (Netanyahu et co) on the other hand funded and supported Hamas.
That was the publicly stated policy. The US did negotiate with the PLO and we did have non-official cover diplomats going in and out of Gaza every week.
Israel funding Hamas is another lie. I can do it, too. The UN funds Hamas because it provides food to Gaza, keeping Hamas in power by preventing the Gazan people from having to live with the consequences of their choices (having no food because they prefer to have terrorists in charge). I mean, that’s technically true, but not really funding Hamas.
So you mean… “negotiating with terrorists” is actually necessary?
And I said funded and supported. Here is the Times of Israel, a well known antisemitic, anti-israel publication : https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
with how happy the IDF has been with killing the hostage themselves so far, I have a hard time believing it. Could it have happened? Sure. Did it? Since the IDF says it did, it’s much more likely that it didn’t.
The IDF and security forces are doing everything possible to bring all hostages home as quickly as possible.
Then apparently a ceasefire isn’t “possible”. STFU, Hagari.
‘Quick, bomb more civilian choke points!’
Sure it is. Hamas will release the hostages and surrender and there will be a ceasefire, otherwise Hamas will be killed to the man.
So says the IDF, anyway. I’ll believe it when someone independent confirms it.
It’s no mental stretch to believe idf would kill their own to further the genocide agenda.
After all, if the hostages are already dead no need for a ceasefire.
Considering they already have, multiple times, I guess I could agree with you
Yeah, it seems more the IDF is just shooting literally anything human-shaped. Aid workers, friendlies, journalists, civilians, in addition to the odd actual “guy actually shooting at us”.
What the actual fuck are you talking about. Hamas murders people all the fucking time, posting videos of their brutal murders etc. proudly online. IDF has no interest in killing hostages, it does not help them, it can only backfire.
Hasbara
It’s baffling that you’re being downvoted for this.
I mean I also don’t think they’re killing hostages (intentionally, anyway), but to say it’s not in their interest is wrong.
They have already killed 3 hostages waving white flags.
“They” being the IDF, to be clear.
Yes, sorry I should have been less ambiguous. Thanks for posting a link.
These people are all kinds of dumb fucking idiots living in a fairy tale where Hamas are the poor oppressed good guys
I’m telling you that if, say, Canada came and occupied my home town, forced everyone out, and killed my family, that I’d definitely be an anti Canadian terrorist.
Addition: How is this being downvoted. Violence begets terrorists. Have we learned nothing from historical US intervention in the middle east? This is Israel’s “War on Terror” and its going to end the same way. Tons of dead brown people and many many more terrorists.
Hey Buddy, there’d no need to go there, pal. We’re not going to do that unless there’s a Tim’s in your town friend.
PS, please don’t read up about our history in WWI, we’re just the funny folks with goofy red uniforms and horses…
PPS, please don’t read up about the actual RCMP.
That isn’t Hamas though. Their leadership lives it up in Bahrain I think and has a dictatorship over Gaza. Before the pandemic there was a protest by the Palestinians and it was brutally oppressed. Hamas hasn’t held elections in a long time.
Don’t confuse Palestinian freedom fighters and civilians seeking revenge with Hamas.
I’m saying when you have no outlet for justice, you will side with whatever is the next best option. It’s what all these harm reductionists say here in the states about voting.
You side with the best of two options, and hamas, even if just slightly, is better for Palestinians than Israel.
I’d be a lot easier to just objectively say “fuck Hamas”, if Israel wasn’t being their #1 recruitment officer by making life in Palestine and the West Bank hell.
What if you did it first for like a thousand years and wanted to do it again?
Walking around in your home town on top of artifacts, the earliest recorded human history of the region, written in the language of the people you’re saying pushed you out. Sounds delusional to say the land was yours first. Just dig a hole and look for yourself. Hamas knows this, with all their digging.
Land provenance isn’t a good argument for Gaza. The historical record of who was there first is irrefutable
Modern Ashkenazi Jews are not ancient Israelis.
They looked a lot more like the Palestinians. IMO religion as a race is stupid anyways
What I’m saying is that the Palestinians were actively displaced, in recent history. I’m not arguing who has right to land, just that up and deciding a handful of decades ago that people need to move is not the right call.
Maybe not the right call but it was the call and now that’s what we’ve got. Saying it’s not the right call is a useless platitude, same as saying Palestinians were there first. Israel is there. Israel a flawed democracy, which is infinitely better than the far right, theocratic dictatorships, including Gaza, which surround it, and for that reason alone is worth the western defense.
You would be a freedom fighter going for liberation though.
Hampshire is not attempting to liberate the Palestinian people.
That’s what you are failing to realize.
A person with no options is going to choose the better of two evils. Hamas wants to rule over them. Israel wants to wipe them off the map.
Its always the same people that advocate for harm reduction with our votes that say stuff like this.
The only option here is for one of the two side to be better, and I feel it’s incumbent on Israel as long as they are recieving our weapons.
That’s the only reason any of us care over here in the US, frankly, is that we are suddenly all morally culpable. In the hypothetical Candian invasion circumstance, I would absolutely side with “Not Canada” if given an option.
Can you name a single policy or decision over the last 20 years that Hamas has had that makes you believe they aren’t themselves attempting to get Palestine wiped off the map?
In my mind, if Hamas were themselves trying to rule, they would be making decisions for themselves and not doing what Iran tells them to.
Surely you have put two and two together already.
When the IDF rescued the only 4 hostages they did, they killed 300+ mostly women and kids including some more of their own hostages.
So that’s why probably it was a no brainer for Hamas to indeed just execute them as soon as they figured they would be found, to save the lives of hundrends of innocents
Why would the IDF’s response be weaker if the hostages are dead?
We need clear good guys and bad guys, so if the IDF is the bad guys (which they certainly are) well that means Hamas must be the good guys (which they certainly are not) and thus this has to be some noble effort.
No, they killed the hostages and left. If they tried to hold up, and maybe go for a prisoner swap, there’d be more people at risk.
Not claiming Hamas is good but if there’s no resistance, they don’t kill as many people while finding the bodies.
They’re not trying to protect the ‘innocent’, they didn’t want the IDF gunning them down. When they saw the news about the IDF laying waste to everyone, they said “Fuck that,” killed the hostages and left.
Warfighting 101, that’s why you don’t go scorched earth for your hostages. If you make it a smart move to just kill them, they’ll just get killed…
Granted if you’re not looking for the hostages but looking to make your opponent look more inhuman, well, in that case great idea.
French people committed all sorts of terrorist acts against the nazis in the early days of WWII, were those french terrorists not the good guys in the conflict? If so, why wouldnt Hamas also be the good guys?
Not necessarily. Crimes against the innocent are pretty fucking hard to justify.
No need to go in after hostages that aren’t there
“Hostages found bludgeoned to death with rubble in tunnel that was liberated by IDF bombs.”
says army spokesperson Hagari
99% chance that it’s either a complete fabrication or a distortion of the truth when an IDF spokesperson is the ONLY source. Let’s see if anyone even remotely reliable confirms the story.
While I agree with you that independent verification is mandatory in situations like this, I also believe that once you get that verification, your position will not change. You have only given yourself a 1% chance of changing your stance, which means, in my opinion, that the only refuge you are offering yourself is conspiracism if and when you are proven wrong.
I suspect the conspiracy will be “Israel killed the hostages themselves.”
once you get that verification, your position will not change.
False.
You have only given yourself a 1% chance of changing your stance
No. I have given a very generous 1% chance of something said ONLY by an IDF spokesperson being the unvarnished truth. The concurrence of other sources would of course dramatically increase that chance, especially if any of them are themselves very reliable.
in my opinion, that the only refuge you are offering yourself is conspiracism if and when you are proven wrong.
That’s a very weird way to guess wrong.
I suspect the conspiracy will be “Israel killed the hostages themselves”
Wouldn’t be the first time or the last. That’s not a conspiracy theory at this point, though, just what’s most likely given the past behavior of all of the factions involved 🤷
I’m reserving final judgment until people of greater reliability than the likes of Donald Trump, Baghdad Bob, or Alex Jones chime in, though.
You don’t see how automatically trusting the captors until proven otherwise is already evidence of how much you have embraced conspiricism?
I’m not saying that I trust Hamas. For the record, I don’t.
I’m just saying that I don’t trust the IDF either, infamous as they are for being caught lying constantly.
Right, but you know hamas believes jews should be wiped from this earth, and you know this current war began because of specific steps Hamas chose to take to attempt to make that goal a reality, you know the mistreatment they have displayed towards the hostages.
So for you to say that there is a 99% chance that Hamas is innocent of these killings, that’s a specific choice you are making for conspiricism.
Right, but you know hamas believes jews should be wiped from this earth,
That’s irrelevant. They’re not in a position where doing so is possible, and killing their only leverage against a technologically and numerically superior force is not in their interest.
The Israeli people thinking that they did, on the other hand, is VERY much in the interest of the IDF.
you know this current war began because of specific steps Hamas chose to take to attempt to make that goal a reality
Nope. Atrocious and barbaric beyond description as it was, October 7th was a political act, not a foolhardy attempt to kill all Jewish people.
Just because they’re despicable terrorists doesn’t mean that Hamas are stupid enough to think that the total eradication of all Israeli Jews, let alone all Jews worldwide, is something that is in any way possible.
And it’s not a war. It’s one of the biggest, most powerful, and most technologically advanced militaries in the history of humanity eradicating or displacing an entire people, using a tiny minority (that is nowhere near as much a threat as they pretend) as a pretense.
you know the mistreatment they have displayed towards the hostages.
Talking about Hamas or Israel? Because the only significant differences with regards to hostages is that Israel has hundreds if not thousands as many that they abuse just as horribly as Hamas does theirs.
So for you to say that there is a 99% chance that Hamas is innocent of these killings
Again ignoring the qualifier, so I’m gonna make it a little more obvious:
As long as an IDF spokesperson is the ONLY source
that’s a specific choice you are making for conspiricism.
Nope, that’s a statement of how unreliable the IDF and their spokespeople have proven themselves to be. Repeatedly leaving out that part, though? THAT’S a specific choice.
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No, Hamas, beliefs and actions are not irrelevant to the situation we are currently in. That is foolish.
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Describing terrorists committing a terrorist act as a “political” action is incredibly forgiving of the behavior of terrorists.
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An elected government invading and attacking a different country is an act of war, regardless of whether the nation they attacked is militarily superior. Hamas made a decision to go to war, and claiming they didn’t is factually wrong.
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I don’t personally feel any need to justify the behavior of any right wing religious fundamentalist organization against their hostages. The fact that we are in a situation where two organizations fitting that description are behaving badly and you have chosen a side says something about you that it doesn’t me.
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So you trust none of the firsthand sources, but somehow still think you’re enlightened to what’s going on?
I trust journalists that have proven themselves reliable, even as that puts them directly in the crosshairs of the genocidal apartheid regime.
somehow still think you’re enlightened
Never claimed any such thing. Please stow your strawman.
What, Al Jazeera and Guardian? Ha.
I suspect the conspiracy will be “Israel killed the hostages themselves.”
So your evidence of the conspiracy that Israel’s policy is to murder hostages themselves to frame Hamas is that 9 months ago an Israeli unit killed 3 hostages while not realizing they were hostages?
That’s pretty weak justification to align yourself on the side of Hamas here. I think you know that though.
It’s more about their inability to respect the most recognizable sign of surrender. The problem is you think any criticism of the IDF is alignment with Hamas. These are people being murdered, pull your head out of your ass.
…I’m not a supporter of the IDF.
Di you want to understand the argument being made before choosing to argue against it?
What a terrible article. What is the source or evidence the hostages were executed? People are saying it’s a claim by the IDF but it’s not even attributed to them. From reading the article I have no idea who is making this claim or how it is supported. That’s not how journalism works.
So much angst about unreliable sources here, but we’re letting this fly?
Edit: Here is a better summary of the available source information. It is coming from the IDF, but they haven’t really said much other than it was obvious to them Hamas was the culprit. We’ll have to see what further information they release.
They were 65 feet down in a Hamas tunnel. What other evidence could you possibly need to know Hamas killed these hostages?
Do we have any source aside from the IDF?
Because already where they were supposedly found is based on what the IDF says. And we know that the IDF has been lying repeatedly throughout this war. We know that IDF soldiers have killed Israeli hostages before. We know about the Hannibal doctrin that dictates the IDF killing their own soldiers to prevent them from being captured alive. And the current political situation in Israel has become extremely critical of the IDFs failures to secure the hostages. So the IDF has an even greater incentive to downplay any possible responsibility.
Until we have the results of a comprehensive investigation by a non IDF party, there is a lot more evidence we need to know before forming a judgement.
We know Hamas and regular Gazans lie even more than the IDF.
Greater incentive? Hamas are terrorists. They follow zero international laws. Hamas has no incentive whatsoever to be honest. We know about their constantz irrefutable war crimes, every time they go out without uniforms (always), hiding among civilians (the more the better!), as if that’s not a bigger war crime than anything the IDF has been accused of, using entire cities as human shields.
You asked, what more evidence would be needed. I laid it out. In regards to “hiding among civillians” i would like to ask you, whether you will apply that same condemnation to IDF, whose Headquarters are in the center of TelAviv https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HaKirya
Are they hiding the IDF headquarters among civilians? No. Did they sneak in at night and build it under colleges and apartment buildings? No. Everyone knows right where it is. The people going in and out are uniformed soldiers, under color of a legitamate country.
This is a stunningly idiotic comparison. You weren’t serious, forgot the /s, right?
If you were Hamas, would you situate yourself in a building out in the middle of nowhere (where is that in Gaza?) With a sign on it saying Hamas lives here, please don’t bomb.?
Not sure about that. The Hamas health system seems to have been pretty accurate about casualty numbers so far and in the past (including when belatedly confirmed by the IDF). Whereas the IDF has been shown to lie quite a lot
Also: International Law? What does the ICJ have to say about that issue?
Well, Hamas claimed it was the IDF.
There are a lot of ways people can die in a tunnel in war. Friendly fire, suffocation, starvation, disease, tunnel collapse… the list goes on. Execution is a very specific way to die, and it’s extremely convenient to IDF’s narrative about the conflict, and it seems counter to Hamas’s interests to throw away their main bargaining chip. It’s not that I don’t believe that’s what happened, but the minimal details presented here don’t tell a complete story and weren’t even traceable back to a specific source. I’m just looking for a little more detail to fully understand what happened.
And this is assuming the bodies were found where they died. It’s also possible they died elsewhere and were being stored here for use in negotiations. We just don’t know much and unfortunately, will need to depend on untrustworthy sources to find out more.
Israeli spokesperson had this to say “When we forced people to live in slums and ghetto’s we thought they would act like our ancestors, and we could just slaughter them. I guess that’s not how genocide always works. But we with will keep trying no matter how many innocent children die! Because when the victims stands up for themselves, we lose, and the Zionism cult doesn’t allow for that.”
Sickening…
@Threeme2189@sh.itjust.works This reply getting downvoted shows Lemmy political opinions pretty well
I downvoted it for two reasons. One, it doesn’t contribute to discussion, and two, it’s telling you how to feel, like how Trump’s tweets ending in “Sad!”.
You should feel sick when a far right religious dictatorship kidnaps innocent people and then executed them for the “glory of Islam.” It is sickening.
It really does. After a while, you get so exhausted that you simply zone out of these tiresome, often idiotic political opinions.
It was exactly the same with reddit, come to think of it…
The hostages seem like the only bargaining chip they have (not that it’s much of a bargaining chip), so I’m surprised they’re doing it. Maybe they’ve decided that it isn’t worth it.
I put as much faith in this as I do the hospital tunnel story.
Anything the IDF says is to be treated as bunk without at least 2 corroborating sources. The IDF lies like they breathe, so I’m more willing to assume they killed the hostages to make Hamas look bad than anything they actually say.
It’s entirely possible this is total nonsense, but I could also see them realizing that keeping them alive was an exercise in futility and, as I suggested in another comment, a waste of precious resources like food.
Oh, don’t get me wrong, it could maybe possibly be true. We’re just getting it from a serial liar, so the message is untrustworthy on its face.
I’ll be extremely saddened if I’m wrong here, because those people didn’t deserve this. But given Israel’s long history of blatant lies in the name of PR against anything Palestinian, I’m not going to believe it until a credible source backs up their statement.
Israeli history isn’t even a necessary consideration. The messaging of any warfighting party should always be taken with appropriate caution.
If someone is willing to wage war to achieve their goals, some propaganda efforts are certainly not out of the question. Factuality cannot really be confirmed until after the war is over, and the area becomes safe for neutral parties to visit. Active warzones are just not fountains of factual and verifiable reporting though.
Probably frustration and despair. If your bargaining chip can’t get you a bargain, all they’re worth is ‘revenge’ against your opponent.
What a fucked situation.
Thinking on it, it was probably also costing them what are now valuable resources to keep them alive. When it’s near impossible to get in and out of Gaza, food, medicine, etc. are worth their weight in gold.
If you don’t have the resources to provide for your POWs, the correct solution is parole, not execution.
How would you propose safely paroling them? There’s already examples of released hostages then being killed by the IDF.
Any type of parole has to be at least marginally less dangerous for the hostage than execution.
If they die either way, no it isn’t.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Alon_Shamriz,_Yotam_Haim,_and_Samer_Talalka
On 15 December 2023, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldiers operating in Shuja’iyya, Gaza as part of the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip killed three Israeli hostages taken during the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel. The hostages, who were trying to be rescued, were visibly unarmed and shirtless and waving a makeshift white flag when they were killed.
Sounds equally dangerous to me.
Is Hamas even that disciplined to act as a unified front? Management or soldiers on the site could’ve decided themselves to take a revenge on hostages. Especially if they knew they are cornered and there were no use of keeping them alive if they are deadmen too.
Based on accounts from hostages who have been freed, Hamas is at least more disciplined than the IDF
Ha. If Hamas had IDF weapons and tactics, they would use it to eradicate every Jew in the middle east. They don’t have such weapons because they aren’t disciplined at all. They are so undisciplined, they can’t plan for their own futures unless it involves killing Jews. That’s why there is no investment in the future of Gaza or its people except for terror tunnels, rockets, and rocket launchers, oh and mass shootings.
Such discipline from Hamas that Gaza can’t be trusted with a runway, let alone aircrafts and parts, or other nice things that normal countries get to have when they don’t keep putting terrorists in charge.
Funding is not disclipine. I believe your head is in your ass. I’m willing to help with that, even though I’m against genocide and the more than half century occupation and Israel’s current g̶o̶v̶e̶r̶n̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ terrorist regime.
Does any credible, multilateral international body designate Israel as terrorists, or just edgelord know nothings on the internet?
Sounds like they were retreating from the area, and didn’t want to bring the hostages with them. In this case, executing the hostages makes strategic sense, as it reinforces the threat that you are willing to do so.
They also have dead Palestinian kids that they’ve intentionally placed in harms way, entire cities they use as human shields, you know, for sympathy.
“Martyrdom” they call it.
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