PARIS, Nov 27 (Reuters) - Six teenagers go on trial behind closed doors on Monday, accused of involvement in the beheading of French history teacher Samuel Paty by a suspected Islamist in 2020 in an attack that struck at the heart of the country’s secular values.
The teacher had shown his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in a class on freedom of expression, angering a number of Muslim parents. Muslims believe that any depiction of the Prophet is blasphemous.
Reuters – Bias and Credibility
Bias Rating: Least Biased
Factual Reporting: Very High
Country: United Kingdom
MBFC’s Country Freedom Rank: Mostly Free
Media Type: News Agency
Traffic/Popularity: High Traffic
MBFC Credibility Rating: High Credibility
Good bot! I like this shit
Media Bias Fact Check is only considered “reliable” because people use it. The actual authors of the site lack any real credentials for evaluating factuality, nevermind bias.
I’d love to discuss this more if you’d be interested. I teach mass communications and visual literacy courses at a university and have over a decade of experience. I’m always interested in discussing these things further, as media literacy is extremely important and we can only educate others and make improvements with our literacy skills through discussion, learning, and practice.
Could you tell me more about the authors you mention and where you got the information from?
One thing I like about Media Bias Fact Check is that their methodology is transparent and clear. Yes, there is a certain level of subjectivity, as there is with any analysis like this. They utilize fact checking best practices and have ethical funding. Even their competitors rate them to be accurate and credible.
They are considered reliable not because people use them, but because of their methodologies, transparency, and factuality. Nothing is 100%, but it’s a good resource in my opinion.
The only thing we know about the authors of Media Bias Fact Check is what they’ve posted on their website. There’s no corroborating source, no evidence of background, and no indication that these people actually exist other than a business registration for a sole prop and a sparsely-populated mortgage for the lead editor. You can feel free to dig deeper (I’ve focused on the primary author and editor), but this wouldn’t pass the sniff test.
Moreover, their methodology, frankly, doesn’t hold up to any type of scientific method. It’s a perversion of the scientific process. Their methodology is essentially surveying one of the authors and asking them to draw a point on a line. That’s not science.
Based on their methodology, Electronic Intifada has never failed a fact check and should be “very factual”… But it’s recorded as “mostly factual” because they have biased reporting. Reuters is recorded as “very factual,” but they’ve gotten a number of things wrong without correction… Sort of comes with the territory of being a news wire service. CBC, which has also not failed a fact check, only gets a “highly factual” rating because of their supposed left-leaning bias. Essentially, their subjective analysis conflates factuality with bias.
This also raises a bigger problem: the lead author and editor is clearly American and guides ratings towards an American Overton window. Thus, bias is viewed on the left-to-right scale commonly used in the US, with the center defined as the American center. Normally, this wouldn’t be a huge problem for American audiences, but as established MBFC conflates factuality with bias: essentially, any source that deviates from the “center of the American political spectrum” is seen as less factual. Their source for fact checks is a newspaper run out of a school that has received funding from the US state-funded Voice of America.
This is, of course, operating under the assumption that their methodology is actually valid… And that, in itself, is a dangerous assumption to make. There’s a lack of transparency in who’s doing what evaluation, and the end result of that is that the assessment itself is basically “what does one guy think about this site.” Despite them defining what they mean by left and right, they give scant evidence to justify their “quantitative” evaluation of sources - this, itself, makes their evaluation qualitative.
Some of their details also show a lack of understanding of the media landscape. Calling CBC News a “TV station” is a joke. Their website is also, frankly, a mess, which bothers me because it’s clear that they aren’t following basic modern web development principles and that’s really fucking annoying.
Their methodology is bunk, there’s very little transparency within their organization to establish credibility, and they conflate factuality with their perception of bias.
Oh, who are the actual authors? You seem to know a lot about them.
Nobody knows anything except their names and what they themselves claim. The primary author and editor shares a name with a prominent American lawyer, and that’s about all we know. I’ve tried digging into the guy (he claims to have a physiology degree and works in healthcare), but I can’t find a single source that indicates he even exist.
Edit: anyone who tries to tell me that a name on a mortgage is an indication that someone exists should look a little bit more closely at those documents. I’ll wait.
Well at least that means I’m not insane. I’ve had problems with it for a while.
I would’ve thought that we’d all learned that finding people who agree with each other on the internet says nothing about their individual or collective sanity.
Lmao fair enough.
I prefer to use Ad Fontes site. I find it through most accurate source.
Seems like another valuable resource! Glad to have another source to help evaluate what I read.
Some of the “Overall Scores” from Ad Fontes seem odd to me, but still pretty good. I think most of the articles they evaluate are user-submitted, and that might skew their scores as it’s not a random sampling. I would choose to weigh articles in a differently, but that’s just my personal opinion and it doesn’t negate the benefit.
Specifically, I would point out the “Individual Content Sample Scores” vs the “Overall Score” for Al Jazeera as an oddity. https://adfontesmedia.com/al-jazeera-bias-and-reliability/ In my opinion, Al Jazeera has a lot of good reporting, but also has a strong bias that effects their overall credibility. I still like reading them, but I wish they would remain more focused on objective facts rather than opinion.
Maybe these people would be happier moving to a country where their religion is forced down from the government? Maybe go there?
You’re incompatible with western society so change or get the fuck out.
And before anyone jumps down my throat I’m speaking specifically of those who don’t accept that things like freedom of speech include things they don’t like.
They are here to expand their religion, not for escaping their country or freedom of speech. They are using freedom of speech to make themselves a victim while expanding their religion in the back.
freedom of speech includes blatant disrespect of a religion you’re not a part of, got it
Yes, 100%.
I really can’t tell if you’re being serious. Just in case…
The prophet Muhammad was a real piece of shit etc etc etc.
See? I’m allowed to do that. Thankfully I live somewhere I don’t have to be in fear of saying things like that.
religion is a choice and that choice is killing people its ok to be disrespectful to public practicers of religion.
we should be laughing in their faces and mocking them because its embarassing
The part of that that breaks down is that one group’s interpretation of it being okay to kill people isn’t necessarily another person’s religious practice. Mocking the latter is like treating everyone who eats bacon like a psychopath who enjoys slaughtering animals.
And religion isn’t always a choice for everyone. It should be, but isn’t always.
religion is a choice for everyone no exceptions. treating someone eating bacon as a psychopath slaughtering animals isnt the same as bacon and animals are real, and the connection between the two can be studied. religious folk choose to believe something fake that cannot be studied or proved and people die for it. wars are fought over this fake garbage. meat doesnt cause wars (because the vegans are lacking the essential nutrients to fight back lol)
also i eat meat and you can call me a psychopath if you want. youre not entirely wrong officially the meat industry is terrible i just dont see me boycotting it causing a tangible change, and i like meat.
edit its important to add, anyone practicing religion gives the people that use religion to kill a platform and sets a precedent that its ok by not ostracizing them. christians like when people they don’t like are murdered. put any religion in place of christian it still works.
To be fair, i think they meant no choice, as in being born into it, especially in some countries.
Yep.
You can’t have freedom of speech without the freedom to offend. They go hand in hand.
Whatever your religion is buddy it can choke on all of my cock
Seems like a fair and reasonable response to a cartoon.
The religion of peace strikes again.
Religion of love!
Islam is so touchy. Even pointing out Mohammed was a bandit and a pedophile gets them going and that is just straight facts anyone can get from reading about his life.
Religious extremists are the touchy ones. Plenty of Muslim folks who go on with their lives in peace.
I do agree that islamist extremists are the worst.
To be honest, the Nationalist Christians (Nat-C’s) that we have here at home are pretty fucking unsettling. They know that it’s their god-given right to be in charge of everything and they will “save” everyone by trying to force their twisted interpretation of religious texts onto the populace with zero compromise, because “that’s god’s plan”.
They’re just as bad as Islamic extremists; they’re just committing their violence in more official channels and in a slower fashion, up until the day that they manage to get an unshakable hold on power (read: establish a “theocratic” dictatorship, like the Republic of Gilead from Handmaid’s Tale, which they took as an aspirational goal instead of a cautionary story).
Yep. They’re killing people through legislation and propaganda, instead of more directly observable ways. But it’s still clear
In Europe there are more Muslim refugees though, than, for example, in North America which gets more regular Muslim immigrants.
It’s a specific problem in Europe with an influx of refugees from war torn and poor countries who are often troubled, more extreme in their religion and potentially less educated (because they fled from shitty countries).
I guess it’s more connected to those circumstances than with Islam in itself. Statistically, more educated and better off people are less religious. I suspect that’s the same with Muslims?!
Yeah, at the most, the Muslims in my life would’ve said “hey I find that disrespectful can you please not” and go about their day.
Give them power and let’s see how they behave.
I’d argue those muslims are not properly following the text of their religion.
Same for the more “tolerant” Christians, but that’s not the point of this conversation.
And I’d argue you’re wrong.
You could make that argument. It would just be a baseless emotional argument disputed by facts.
Read the books man. It’s all right there in the text.
I have studied them for years.
You don’t get to say “some Muslims are in peace”. Muslims are part of a religion that is causing a lot of troubles.
When someone is part of a big organization, like the police, one does not get to say “not all of us are pigs”. If they are not raising their hand and telling on the shitty people causing problems, then everyone is the problem.
Everyone says this bullshit until it’s their group causing the problems and then all of a sudden they deserve mercy and understanding for how complex their situation is.
Most Muslims are decent people. If they weren’t, the west would be in a continuous state of violence. People like you are just racist assholes looking for any excuse to justify your prejudice.
You don’t get to judge an entire group by the worst members without it coming back to bite you in the ass some day.
If I were part of a religion that is so extrem that is killing people and attacking members of the LGBT community, etc, I would 100% leave said religion/group. Its not really that hard to do it. A decent person wouldn’t be a part of those kind of groups.
I mean… you’re a citizen of a country, right?
your addiction to analogies hasn’t helped you a bit into at least making proper analogies
And your education has sadly failed you in teaching you what an analogy is.
An analogy is a comparison. I wasn’t comparing, just trying to teach you a basic logical thought process. Don’t worry, I’ve given up on that. I can see why your teachers failed. Prejudice is a hell of an intelligence blocker.
Once again a stupid analogy. I can’t be not a citizen of any country. You can be not a member of any religion.
You can choose to leave a country and join a different one. But you haven’t, so you belong to it.
But your thought processes are clearly blocked. I’m certainly not going to try to open them. Closed minds are boring.
You wouldn’t give a shit if you did. Most of my Muslim friends aren’t religious at all, pro-LGBT and everything. They still get shat on by racist fucks like you. You don’t care about people.
Oh so you have the whole world figured out now? Collective punishment is for fascists.
Fucking piece of shit. You’re no different from the intolerant people you hate so much.
Quick glance tells me you’re mexican… Which Cartel do you work for then?
Cartels aren’t a religion that are trying to expand over the world.
It is honestly, with all due respect, a very stupid comparison.
Just saying; your take wasn’t exactly enlightened either.
Oh, so it’s okay to belong to a group of people whose open tenet is murdering and enslaving people, but a religion that teaches against those things, but has a few nutjobs is somehow not?
Strong logic there. Completely free of bias. 🙄
Who is saying that cartels are ok?
Also… “a religion that teaches against those things”. You are really brainwashed.
You’re excusing cartels: organizations that are absolutely and unashamedly expanding and taking over the world, simply because they aren’t a religion.
That may not be your intended meaning, but it’s definitely connotated.
Dogma doesn’t have to have a God to be dangerous.
It’s just as stupid as your moronic comparison, cartel enabler. If you really cared about the damage the cartels do to the world you’d leave Mexico. We don’t want to hear your excuses.
I left Mexico many years ago, lol. Now you leave your religion of peace.
You left to where, the US to commit more crime? Stay tf away from civilization please. We don’t need more Mexican criminals here.
I believe every extremist is touchy. Fuck religion!
You know you don’t need to virtue signal “all religions!” in a thread specifically about islamist terrorism, right? Do the “all religion” thing when it’s a christian, sikh, buddhist, etc. sawing the head off a school teacher in the street.
They’re cowards is what they are. Plain and simple.
all religions are cancer. ALL. period. I can criticise any fanatic of any religion the same way I criticise the fanatics of the religion I grew up and was brainwashed to follow. I was able to leave. For some people it may be more difficult because of the situation in their country. However, the people who migrate in mostly atheistic west countries, they continue being fanatics by choice.
However, the people who migrate in mostly atheistic west countries, they continue being fanatics by choice.
There are Arabs who migrate to Europe because they’re not allowed not express their disbelief in their home countries.
yes, you’re very correct on that. I failed to write it in a way that gives space for exclusions. I wanted to write something like “from the people who migrate in mostly atheistic (or at least less religious) countries, when they continue being fanatics in their religion, then this decision is by choice”. Because they are now in a place that if they want to get rid of that culture, it is easier to do it.
Sure, there are people who migrate because they want to leave from the oppression they experience in their home countries and they decide to follow a completely different lifestyle but these are not the majority. But they surely exist.
It was a class lesson on freedom of speech… oh gee.
Sad little cowards can’t live in a free world where people can have their own thoughts on belief.
i’d just like to comment on this comment section
since i’ve joined lemmy some months ago i’ve seen the nuanced discussion i was so relieved and happy to find here degrading. this section ilustrates that well. the nuanced and cautious are still there, but are being briganded against in a way i don’t think they were before
maybe i’m sounding like an “eternal september” elitist here, but i do like open discussions on the internet, with all the ugliness that’s bound to happen. i just really hope with all my heart that, in the midst of it all, the good things don’t go away
When you have a significant number of people on the internet that are here simply to poison dialogue “for the lulz” or whatever other bullshit reason they use, this is how it will always end up.
I like to use this discussions to expand my blocklist. They call themselves out rather unambiguously in this sort of topics.
I have so many people in my block list now, it’s ridiculous.
There is no nuanced discussion on this topic, as there is only 1 correct reaction, within which any degree of outrage is justified.
Well I think he or she is referring to the “all religion is bad” arguments that are nothing about this particular case, which I agree that there is only 1 correct reaction here which is condemning this act.
Lemmy turned into another reddit overnight when reddit killed third-party apps. On the one hand it makes it easier to ditch reddit entirely, but I do really miss what the community was in the years before that happened.
Agreed, but I still feel it’s better than Reddit. It depends on the instance and community, of course, but assholery is far less tolerated here. At least in my experience. I do miss the pre-Reddit exodus days, though.
Also, if you haven’t been on Reddit lately, it’s really bad now. Definitely worse than before.
Yea it’s really sad that this community didn’t have a long period of fewer interactions with higher quality comments. It regressed to the mean very quickly.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
PARIS, Nov 27 (Reuters) - Six teenagers go on trial behind closed doors on Monday, accused of involvement in the beheading of French history teacher Samuel Paty by a suspected Islamist in 2020 in an attack that struck at the heart of the country’s secular values.
The teacher had shown his pupils cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad in a class on freedom of expression, angering a number of Muslim parents.
One of the minors is a 15-year-old girl who allegedly told her parents that Paty had shown caricatures of the prophet in her class.
Paty, 47, was killed outside his school in a Paris suburb by an 18-year-old assailant, born in Russia of Chechen origin, who was shot dead by police soon after the attack.
France is home to Europe’s largest Muslim minority and has suffered a wave of attacks by Islamist militants or their sympathisers in past years.
In the wake of Paty’s killing, some teachers acknowledged they censored themselves to avoid confrontation with pupils and parents over religion and free speech.
The original article contains 293 words, the summary contains 173 words. Saved 41%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
When I was in high school I screamed in the middle of biology class “those are not gonads, those are balls!”. I still feel bad about it because the teacher was so nice and I was a nightmare.
I feel a bit better.
I’m sorry what? 2.5 years? Is that a joke? Those animals should never set foot outside prison walls again no matter their age.
Did you just read the headline and get outraged without pausing for even a second to think “2.5 years for murder and mutilation can’t be right, I better read the article”?
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None of that happened and you’re starting to look a lil racist, bruh.
On 16 October 2020, a week and a half after Paty’s freedom-of-speech class, Anzorov was driven to Paty’s school by an alleged accomplice and waited outside the gates of the school. He asked a number of students to point out the teacher.[58][23] He paid two students, aged 14 and 15, around €300 to identify Paty; the two then waited with Anzorov for two hours until they sighted Paty leaving.[59] A Friday, it was the last schoolday before a two-week holiday.[60] Anzorov had told them he intended to “hit” and “humiliate” Paty, according to Jean-François Ricard, in order to “make him apologise for the cartoon of the Prophet Muhammad”.[59]
He paid two students he’d never met before money for the information after telling them he was just going to hit him and shame him a bit.
C’mon bruh, you can do better than this.
You sound pretty eager to be xenophobic to me. They haven’t been convicted yet, but you’ve already decided they committed an act equal to beheading, with full knowledge of what was about to happen, and deserving of being imprisoned forever, without needing to even hear their side of the story (which could easily be “I was 14 and a murderer demanded information that wouldn’t have been difficult for them to find elsewhere”).
unfit for western society. I don’t care if they rot in prison or on a psych ward for mentally ill people they just should never be allowed back into society
Because people never change, especially 14 year olds. /s
We aren’t in the courts to decide that, the evidence is never going to be public for us to make that assumption
The five other minors to be prosecuted, aged between 14 and 15 at the time of the attack, will be charged with premeditated criminal conspiracy, or ambush.
They are suspected of having pointed out Paty to the murderer or helped monitor his exit from the school.
They weren’t involved in the killing, they are guilty of pointing him out.
So they were responsible for it
Yes but there’s still limits on how long you can put minors in prison for certain things
Which is fair but 2.5 years seems pretty short for a religious beheading
Maybe, depends on the scope of their involvement. Most European countries have 10 years max for minors, even for premeditated murder.
They are getting 2.5 years for pointing out the teacher, not for beheading.
Correct
So children should go to jail for more than 2.5 years for pointing out a teacher?
Yes, they are responsible for pointing, not killing, glad you understand now.
Which part of “helped monitor his exit” did you not get? They stalked him with the intent to assist the assassination. By your logic, many people aren’t actually criminals because they’re not the ones who actually carried out the murder, they just directed it.
I’m not saying they should get the death penalty but what they did was heinous and deserves more than 2.5 years.
And yet, still they are not responsible for killing and beheading him, the adult who did it is.
Nowhere does it state your xenophobic assumptions about how you feel over the event.
For all they knew he was going to simply speak with the teacher, or maybe kick his ass.
Tell me, why do you assume so freely that all of the Muslim kids were deeply involved in the beheading itself? I find that very interesting…
We hung nazis that didn’t directly kill anyone
Did we?
The only source I can find on such a thing is post Nuremberg trials, and it was ten nazi generals that definitely deserved it.
I did find a source for 23,000 out of 35,000 deserting Nazis were killed by their own party for fleeing war, so maybe you were thinking of that while being a nazi?
Where did I say they were directly involved in the beheading? I know xenophobic is a big word for you but you should still look up the definition before just tossing it around like that.
You speak of me needing to improve my literacy and yet you’re the one confusing deeply involved with directly.
Unless you’re just backpedaling and attempting to obfuscate the point, now.
So? They are still responsible for his death
How so?
If you play by felony murder rules, they’re just as guilty since they participated in the planning and actively participated (by waiting for / stalking the victim and pointing him out to their co-conspirator).
In some places if you help plan and participate in a crime that results in a death you’re equally culpable of the murder - even if you weren’t in the same room as the killing. Escape car drivers frequently get death row for a murder that happened in the course of the crime.
The dude showed up at their school and found some 14 year olds that would tell him who the teacher was for money.
He also told them he was just going to make the teacher apologize, not cut his fucking head off, my guy.
Slow your roll with sticking some tricked dumb kids to prison for life over some shit they had no control over to begin with.
These kids haven’t killed anyone. A weird guy told them who is the teacher who’s insulted Muhamad, here is 300 EUR, I’ll teach him to not do it again
They couldn’t guess what was about to happen, and now live with the guilt and trauma which is a worse sentence than any jail time
You’re presuming a state of mind, just as the other people you’re arguing against are. We don’t know if they regret it or not and never will.
They are not the perpetrators, and were kids at the time. Kids are easily influenced, and make mistakes, a lot of them.
In this case those mistakes ended up causing the gruesome death of an innocent teacher, that is why they are on trial. If someone is guilty, it is their parents, who failed to educate them, and those who exploited those weaknesses to put them under their influence.
They are not the perpetrators, and were kids at the time. Kids are easily influenced, and make mistakes, a lot of them.
Im sorry but my mistakes as a kid were breaking windows not beheading people.
In this case it is more selling information about the victim to the perpetrator.
The tribunal task will be to evaluate if they knew what the perpetrator was about to do, in which case their punishment will be harsher, or if they didn’t.
Again, they didn’t behead anyone
Cool, how long did you go to jail?
Kids are easily influenced, and make mistakes, a lot of them.
And adults aren’t? Tired of this nonsense that people reach a certain age and all of a sudden they can tell right from wrong.
Were you one of those kids who couldn’t tell right from wrong? I wasn’t, and neither were most of my peers. It’s a cultural issue, not an age one.
I mostly agree with you.
It is more of a legal shortcut, but it is a useful one if we don’t want to have to do psychological expertise and possibly counter-expertise for every case to determine if someone is mature enough or isn’t.
I know some man-childs that never got past a teenager maturity, as well as teenagers who have more maturity than many “adults”.
But laws have to be precise for many reasons, and the age of legal responsibility has many reasons to exist other than this case.
Still, adults are mostly less immature than kids, as they had the time to mature (albeit not everyone, unfortunately).
More life experience means it is easier for adults to discern bullshit from truth, and thus their responsibility is considered as full in the case they make mistakes.
A kid tribunal task is as much to discern how mature a kid is as it is to sentence them to a just punishment.
Edit : merging two answers to the same comment.
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Let those of us who weren’t involved in a religiously charged murder cast the first stone.
Wait…
I don’t know for you, but most of us aren’t. Throwing stones at them will only lower us at the same level as those who beheaded others for their fanatical ideology. Let justice do its work.
upvoted solely because the timestamp, we should have that on all the news posts
Lotta fucing dumbasses in here, don’t bother…
*fucking
🙏
Really don’t know what to make of this comments section. I feel like if this were the World News subreddit, this thread would have already been locked and about 90% of the commenters banned, either by the mods or the Reddit admins.
It’s surreal to see comments so hostile towards Islam, on Lemmy of all places… And some of these are arguments I often see racists throw around.
When some stupid religion that some asshole pedo made up makes some nutjobs to kill people, you can’t possibly expect people not to be hostile against it. Islam is a outdated, misogynistic, homophobic, xenophobic, violent and just downright harmful.
Jut like Christianity and Judaism.
yes! all of these religions are outdated and not suitable for the world we live in now. Islam is no better or worse than any of the other abrahamic religions, (can’t really speak on the others as I’m not as familiar). A lot of terrible people just use religion as an excuse to exert their will on others.
Iskam has never undergone a reformation process à la christianity, which is why present-day christianity is, on the whole, less bloodthirsty than it used to be and islam still is.
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How many beheadings have there been, versus the number of Muslim people who have ever lived?
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Last time I was at world news there were people calling refugees “hordes wanting to destroy our culture” and they had hundreds of upvotes
I was banned from the subreddit three years ago for criticizing Saudi Arabia’s treatment of women. Because apparently the line “and other states with strict interpretation of Sharia law” was considered bigotry.
Please, teach me how free speech is okay and murder wrong! Cpt. Obvious we need you now!
