Should we replace bees with mathematics? Those two aren’t exactly valid substitutes for each other.
Really we should just replace mathematics with bees. I can’t think of a problem that can’t be solved with more bees.
I’m thinking Snoop Dogg - Drop It Lik It’s Hot
But everytime he says “pop/drop it like it’s hot” it should instead be “add a swarm of bees”How would you be able to tell there are more bees without mathematics?
Easy, more bees
Absolutely
You add some, then you know for sure.
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Honey’s nice
Ooh look the monkeys like that one. Funny bees!
Think of them as 2 methods for determining policy. Sorry for the confusion.
Think of them as 2 methods for determining policy
They’re not though.
Democracy is a strategy some states use to achieve legitimacy in the eyes of the populace. Science is a method for producing knowledge.
Policy is determined by the financial interests of our elites, our global imperial interests, and the form of our bureaucratic institutions.
Democracy, science and policy are three very distinct domains.
They’re also spelled differently, aha!
Science has no goal. It cannot determine policy. It can tell you how certain policies may affect certain metrics, but it matters who decides what metrics matter ie. do we care if people have food, or if line go up.
Assume that we’ve got self-evident goals. Maximization of health, happiness, security…
Self evident to whom? We are ruled by ghouls who care more about profit than people’s lives. Shouldn’t it be “self-evident” to Biden that committing genocide is bad? Shouldn’t it be “self-evident” that corporations shouldn’t be getting away after poisoning millions of people? Shouldn’t it be “self evident” that if people work all day their wages should be enough to allow them to live decently?
These things may obviously be good, but it won’t be done until we have a system that puts people over profit.
Jeez, soapbox much?
Yes, I think that a sane, self-aware, scientifically-rigorous system would choose public health over that bad stuff you mentioned.
Like The Federation in Star Trek.
Star Trek has an economic system, it’s not run “on science.” Star Trek is functionally fully automated luxury communism. Under capitalism we have the technology to have no scarcity, but that’s not profitable, so capitalists create scarcity by destroying excess product and not giving it to those in need. In Star Trek they have a duplicator thing so no one is in need and no one can make a profit. It is a communist utopia. If you want to see a rational society that implements policy for scientifically planned good look at China. Their ultimate goal is communism, but today for now their achievements include lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, heavily subsidizing green technology allowing it to be cheap and accessible, and lifting people’s living standards so that the life expectancy is higher the wealthy western countries.
But does it have a voting system?
Because I don’t recall seeing any voting booths in the Enterprise.
What does that even mean? Do you mean the methodology? Its not meant for decision making, its made to determine the nature of things.
I think a better term to use would be “fact-based policy.” I believe that even if we intended to rework politics to be more scientific, it would just lead to all the same manipulations and twisting of facts that current politics involves. Don’t like a particular scientific consensus because it interferes with your goals? Hire a bunch of “think-tanks” to publish contradictory papers. Hah, guess what, that’s where we already are.
Science tells us how to achieve objectives, democracy what our objectives should be. (obviously this doesn’t always work perfectly in practice).
OP’s just ignoring every comment that points this out.
It’s a dumb point. Basically fanfic/dogmatism processed through a child’s brain. I’d really rather spend my attention on something better
It’s amazing how small the 99% is. Narrow and shallow. I am re-astonished every time I come here. It’s like the zombie apocalypse happened and nobody noticed.
c/iamverysmart c/iamaclosetfascist
He’s barely in the closet:
https://lemm.ee/comment/11377393
I read a short story where they took a humane approach to population reduction.
An engineered disease. A short fever and then your uterus stops working. 95% effective.
Rioting. All scientists hung. But the world was better.
You remind me of a religious fundamentalist encountering his first plate of spaghetti.
Cause advocating genocide through forced sterilization is somehow laudable?
No. The problem with science is that in part it relies on trial and error. That could get messy on a societal level. We should utilize observation with scientific methods to inform our decisions. Unfortunately a lot of people don’t do that currently and scientific data results can also be manipulated to fulfill an agenda.
Democracy could be said to work on trial an error too, just with human factors thrown into the mix?
A very good point.
We have good models that offer up good decisions, so why put it to the vote?
Base our policy on tested models. Audit our reasoning thoroughly. Be rational.
Vs consult the masses, 99% of whom don’t even understand the question.
Seems like a no brainer
What models are you suggesting we use that are making these good decisions?
You’re using a lot of very general language throughout this thread. We need some elaboration. Otherwise it’s just “we should be logical and stuff.”
Well in your scenario who will implement this? Furthermore, what is the goal that you’re trying to engineer with a science based government? Is it personal happiness, population numbers, the production of capital, or to indoctrinate the masses to serve the state? Are you going to justify the use of eugenics? What happens when goals conflict or individuals don’t want to participate in experiments? What if the science you’re implementing has different philosophies or different schools of thought? How do you determine what is the optimal method?
So like philosopher kings?
I was thinking straight up science.
Given these observations, these firmly established scientific models and this bit of sound reasoning, we conclude that these policies should be implemented.
No voting required.
You forget a piece: “Given these observations, these objectives, and this bit of sound reasoning, …”
Without objectives, no amount of reasoning will tell you what to do. Who sets the objectives?
Science has brought us some rather advanced artificial intelligence that can do many amazing things.
It can model extremely complex protein chains, yet can’t even render a hand properly and doesn’t even comprehend how people consume nutrients.
You really wanna leave all the decisions up to science and technology?
Well that’s the question.
Voting means lots of dummies, a sea of propaganda… Bad stuff there too.
While I can agree that dummies shouldn’t be allowed to vote, how would/could/should we go about designing a proper voter verification program that more or less eliminates the actual dummies/sheeple?
But I don’t think taking the voter factor completely out of the equation in favor of pure raw science is the answer either.
If you leave everything to science, then science would say the world is overpopulated and we should eliminate half or more of the population…
I read a short story where they took a humane approach to population reduction.
An engineered disease. A short fever and then your uterus stops working. 95% effective.
Rioting. All scientists hung. But the world was better.
You must be really fun at parties…
/s
Ah yes, forced sterilization. Very humane.
That’s called fascism. You read a fascist fan-fic. I guarantee the people who were forcefully sterilized wouldn’t agree that the world was better.
It’s called science fiction you gibbering philistine.
A clear indicator that I reached the bottom of the community
Bottom? This is par for the course.
What democracy has to do with science?
Democracy cannot coexist equally with capitalism.
It would stop being science very very quickly, and just be “hey girl, heard you want your son to attend the “control group” school”.
Elaborate?
Two methods for determining policy.
We vote.
We do science.
Should we switch to the latter?
How about the current system where we vote and do science?
Or, maybe we already do 100% science. It’s just that the agenda isn’t precisely popular. And the voting is just for show.
Science is an empirical method of finding fact.
Government is a philosophical method of seeking truth.
You are being pretty incoherent.
How does science determine the order initiatives are addressed?
Well first we would change beans into peas.
The rest is trivial.
99% of the voters wouldn’t know science if it bit them on the butt
Sounds like a wildly unscientific statement, considering e.g ~10% of the US population works in STEM.
That doesn’t seem to make much of a difference, strangely enough.
You make a good case for your own argument.
Well somebody’s got to.
It is fun how you just know that every downvote or negative comment just bolsters op’s ego because to them it shows how the masses are stupid and they are one of the few who know how things should be. Replacing “democracy” with “science” makes no god damn sense because science is not a form o government. How hard would it have been to elaborate how you imagine your “scientific” goverment to work? I guess you would atleast have basic knowledge about politics. So what we got was the question of a 6 year old. How do you expect insightful comments?
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Technocracy is stupid, and just serves tech elites. Thankfully, there is a scientific political system out there called Scientific Socialism. It ruthlessly criticizes the world to find the best way to advance the interests of the great masses of people. It analyses the movement of history and society to make it develope smoothly. It studies its own struggle to make it be more effectively. However, it is not against democracy, but rather in favor of a truer democracy of the working class. Liberal democracy is simply the ruling class making up differences and fighting each other for show. In China they have a far better democracy without such fighting, and instead have tons of dialogue and study.
Scientific socialism sounds like the way to go, but don’t act like China is a democracy.
China is by no means perfect, but far more democratic than the US “beacon of democracy” ever was. There’s a reason over 90% are happy with their government. https://dessalines.github.io/essays/socialism_faq.html#is-china-a-democracy
They are also a good example of the practice of scientific socialism. They’ve extensively studied the Soviet Union as to avoid their mistakes. They also study the contradictions of their society to develop harmonically. I recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism with Chinese Characteristics: a Foreigner’s Guide.
Both Russia and China are authoritarian. 90% are happy with the government in the same way that 86% voted for Putin.
It’s fake numbers.
Fake numbers about a US enemy from harvard? Shouldn’t we be hearing about the 10% who didn’t like the government being punished if there actually is coercion?
That still presupposes that 10% is the right number
