cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/18475086
I’m not against those who work for sex, but the idea to earn for a living doesn’t seem nice. IMO, sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other. My point is money should not be the purpose.
My take is this.
I will guarantee universal basic job & income for everyone.
Once that’s guarantee I’ll see if anyone is willingly becoming a sex worker.
Without performing that “experiment” I cannot really respond.
Let’s take the opposite approach: look at all the top echelons of all past societies, assume that this subset of people was the most free to live in any way that they so desired, then count how many of these people did sex work. I think that we can safely assume that the amount of people that willingly engage in sex work is zero.
A very interesting take. I like that we’re questioning the root cause here.
I think you’ll find that there’s still quite a crowd that would. UBI for sure would help curb the those on the street scene just trying to pay to survive. But there’s a huge group of only fans models that do things not to survive, but rather to become ultra wealthy
I’ll just respond to your take:
The idea to earn for a living doesn’t seem nice.
For you it doesn’t. For others, mind your own business.
sex should be for 2 people (or more for others who prefer polyamory) who wants to be intimate/romantic with each other.
For you it should. For others, mind your own business.
money should not be the purpose.
For you it shouldn’t. For others, mind your own business.
If you have any desire at all to weigh in or or take a position on the consensual sex lives of other adults, you’re just revealing how little you respect the freedom and autonomy of other people. You’re just revealing your desire to control others.
Do you watch porn? Porn is monetized sex with the purpose of getting money, and with a high degree of abuse and exploitation might I add. You and I and any law don’t get to define the purpose of anything, we only decide wether something is allowed or not. If you want to sell your body for money you should have the freedom to do so, protected by labor laws and health assistance. This is a very good way to reduce the spreading of diseases and reduce the power of exploitative criminals
Porn is monetized sex with the purpose of getting money, and with a high degree of abuse and exploitation might I add
That’s a heteronormative statement. What you meant to say is that corporate live action porn, which is most popular with heterosexual men, is abusive and exploitative. Who is abused by the writing of an erotic romance novel with Fabio on the cover? Who is abused by aged-up Sonic The Hedgehog smut? Who is abused by a drawing of two gay dragons having sex? Who is abused by a video game about cumflation battles between cum wizards? Who is abused by two trans gay women posting their sex tape on the internet for free with no expectation of payment?
When you make a statement about all of porn, which applies only to the kind of porn straight men consume in massive quantities, you’re reinforcing the social myth that straight male sexuality is the only sexuality. You’re ignoring diversity and pretending it doesn’t exist.
I am talking about most porn, which is, coincidentally, hetero “mainstream” porn (because most people are hetero and because the most mainstream porn is of the abusive type), but only because that’s how it is in general.
Also my main point was about money being the main reason behind porn, and that applies to video games, erotica and non-abusive pornographic materials.
Money is involved in Fabio novels, but Sonic smut, gay dragon drawings, and cumflation games can all be downloaded for free. If you pay for porn from 2010 onwards, you’re either really a big fan of a particular artist and are engaging in a consensual transaction, you’re rich, or you’re a sucker.
Man, you are focusing too much on single examples, I am talking about an entire industry.
I’m not a man. There you go again normalising maleness.
Always a great question to ask software nerds. Great thread idea dude!
Friend of mine used to be a whore. She says it has been the most fulfilling and fun job she has ever had. She got to meet many interesting people. And she also has a lot of funny stories to tell.
It was also fun for her that she could get tax breaks for underwear and other sexy clothes.
I think it should be legal and regulated. It’s a service that people want and others are willing to fill. We just need laws to protect all parties, particularly the workers.
“Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why isn’t selling fucking legal?” -George Carlin
I’ll kinda take a different approach since everyone’s covered the basics with sex work. The problem with how you’ve presented it, is you’re defining an act on how you perceive and want to regulate it. The simple question becomes, “should people have bodily autonomy?”
Everyone has a different opinion on what can be considered intimate/romantic. Some people feel a full body massage is too intimate, others a dinner with a co-worker is too romantic (not agreeing, just throwing out examples). If we start regulating based on how someone feels something should be perceived than it’s a slippery slope. I can fully understand that you believe sex to be romantic while also realizing that others don’t feel the same way or view it as a positive aspect of it. If it’s not being forced on you then it shouldn’t be a problem what consenting adults do in privacy.
Yes and no. I generally don’t care what consenting adults do between each other no matter if there is money involved.
BUT: I have also seen the ugly side of sex work due to working as paramedic in some not so nice areas. Very often sex work is not really consensual and very often people are forced into it one way or another. We have to definitely handle this situation as a society. This includes more accessible social welfare (and yet we are miles ahead of the US here), very rigid surveillance of the situation and prosecution of people exploiting sex workers.
Funnily enough I think porn by now is far worse than sex work - while someone can get past sex work somewhat easily (I know a consultant doctor who is a former sex worker) by simply changing the environment it is almost impossible with porn. The internet does not forget and while you can always deny doing sex work for porn there is physical evidence that people did that. Add the upcoming AI fakes and it becomes even more of a problem.
Tbh,I have no idea how we should tackle that problem.
Its been said in this thread better than I can - but I wish the people who argue sex work is immoral because you’re “selling your body” would apply that same logic to labor.
For most of us, our body is the only capital we have and we’re taught to devalue that capital into oblivion so those who deplete that capital the most make the smallest possible piece of the pie.
Nope. I believe people should carry, or rather deserve, more dignity than that.
What’s your profession and why do you presume there is more dignity in that over sex work?
See how quickly you resort to thinly-veiled insults?
Sex work is going to happen whether it’s legal or not. Might as well regulate it and provide sex workers with a legal framework, healthcare, retirement funds, etc.
Sex work is work.
The people that do it deserve respect, and all the social and legal protections that attach to any other kind of work.
Your own preferred attitude to sex isn’t the point.
But should it be work?
Should we really have a society where selling your body is an opportunity to make money.
For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it’s the best alternative to pay the bills.
I can barely tolerate the physical straining we put on some workers. Sex work’s consequences are unacceptable to me in that same sens, sometimes worse.
So sure, no matter your opinion we should respect them, and not incriminate them!
And of course not all sex work is the same… to be acceptable it just requires better conditions. It can’t be something you choose out of need.
selling your body
i hate that phrasing to describe sex work. no one is “selling their body”, as they are still in control of it. sex workers provide a service, same as a masseuse or hair stylist (except their service involves genitals) and it should be treated as such.
Otherwise one could argue that all (physical) labour is “selling your body”
It is a high risk job along the lines of coal mining and such, since it will result in an increase in transmitted disease risk. It’s important to acknowledge that, but I am on the side of it being work. I just think we need strong protections in place and regulations to handle it akin to other dangerous jobs. Like, a sex work branch of OSHA.
I think the “body” in that expression is quite specifically referring to genitals, or the selling of your intimacy.
Because that’s what’s different from any other physical labour, the part of your body involved. That’s the specific problem of sex work no?
For instance, it imply that some poor women are gonna take it regardless the consequence, just because it’s the best alternative to pay the bills.
How is this principally different from a poor person taking any shitty job to pay the bills? Like garbage collector or similarly unpleasant/disrespected jobs. The system always forces poor people to settle for shitty jobs. Sex work is not the issue there, the system is.
It’s different in nature. No other jobs infringe on your intimacy in this way.
I do agree the system is the problem, i also would advocate for better conditions for any difficult jobs.
Therapist, hospice, nursing , sports medicine, massage… a lot of jobs require some level of physical or mental intimacy.
Therapist is another topic, with problems of mental intimacy indeed.
The rest is the patient’s intimacy that you have to deal with. It is a vastly different intimate experience to wash a genitalia and be penetrated. And so, vastly different consequences for your well being.
I don’t approve of work.
based
Sex work is work, and work (tying your capacity for labor to your continued survival) is bad. Sex workers should be supported like any member of the proletariat
Sex labor on the other hand? Sure as long as you have removed the exploitive element that comes with work.
Can you elaborate on the work vs labor dichotomy?
I’m not familiar with the concept, especially because in my language the two would be almost exact synonyms in this context (unless you are Hercules or what not). And Latin languages just get the one.
Labor is when you do a thing that has value to society.
Work is like, a job, where you do labor (or not) and that pays you so that you can spend money to sustain your existence. If you get disabled you can be fired and not have money long term to continue existing.
People, ironically enough, are more efficient laborers when they aren’t doing it in the trappings of work, so there isn’t any reason for work to exist.
Are you the only person using that definition?
Because traditionally English speaking Marxists use them the other way around, as far as I remember, (work is useful, produces use value, labor is economic, produces economic value) if they make that distinction at all.
See for example:
(Posted without endorsement)
EDIT
Apparently the English edition includes a footnote by Friedrich Engels:
As has been stated in a previous note, the English language has two different expressions for these two different aspects of labour: in the Simple Labour-process, the process of producing Use-Values, it is *Work; *in the process of creation of Value, it is *Labour, *taking the term in its strictly economic sense. — F. E.
Which reads very much like you are using them wrong.
They are not the only person who uses the words for each other. When I was doing my undergrad I found that myself and my fellow students used them pretty loosely goosey. As a native English speaker I’ve never had any difficulty telling which way a speaker intended labor and work to mean. The context provided enough. I can see how for people who are not native English speakers, but this isn’t an academic institution. In casual conversation either or are appropriate.
Sex work wouldnt exist in an ideal world, as its usually not mentally healthy for the sex worker in the long term.
But since we dont live in an ideal world I would rather legalise it and create laws that protect sex workers instead of criminalising them.
Its the same with all drugs (including cigarettes and alcohol).
I think the opposite. I think sex work as it exists mostly now, wouldn’t be like this in an ideal world. But in an ideal world everything is perfect. So let’s say a world that has ideal economics, people don’t have to resort to this as an act of desperation. But even in such a world, surely there are lonely people? Or people who are just extremely unlucky in love? Or those who don’t have a lifestyle that fits with a long-term relationship? Or those who would like but aren’t ready? The list goes on. One constant that remains in 99.99% of us is one of the most fundamental primal instincts we have - to procreate. This is why food and sex are so enjoyable. Because evolution has led to these things being so great since the genes responsible for that enjoyment have thrived the most and allowed our species to thrive as a whole.
So I think in a world with ideal economics, where everyone can survive and live in health regardless of their luck or opportunities, there will still always be those individuals who crave intimacy and deserve it just as much as anyone. That is where sex workers would be vital.
Literally not different from any kind of therapeutic practitioner.
In an ideal world people who just want casual sex would find each other. And people who want love as well. In an ideal world everyone would also have someone they are an ideal match to.
The only way I see people getting paid to have sex in an ideal world is if they get paid because their sex is so good, like top athletes.
Well I was trying to talk about reality and not fantasy.
We will never live in an ideal world, we can only approach it.
So, yeah, I wasnt referring to reality.
