Need this nationwide. I hate having fees added on to the price of what I’m ordering.
Fees are predatory on people who are swayed by lower advertised cost. Basically, they are extorting the way many people’s brains work. It’s just another way to keep the not rich from ever catching up. Not just in dollars, but time. If you try to price compare, you have to sink a ton of time into uncovering all the fees. The rich just don’t have to worry about that. So it ends up as a time tax.
It’s called a Bait and Switch and is a form of Fraud.
It’s just that in the US, the grey area between Fraud and “Sharp business practice” is legally way broader than the rest of the Developed World.
Kudos to California to have forces some clarification on at least this one form of misrepresentation/false-advertising/fraud.
I agree that these fees are bad and I hate them, but couldn’t you make the opposite argument that they serve as a (money) tax on the rich? Poor people will take the time to shop around for the best deal, whereas rich people will simply pay whatever for the product they want. Therefore hidden fees disproportionately are paid by the rich.
Genuinely poor people rarelly have the time to shop around.
It is bad if you think a person’s value of their own time isn’t reduced to market dynamics. Yes the rich pay a cost/tax for the convenience, but that is because their time is valued more by the market. Poor people are compensated less for their time and that seems to make it “okay” to ask poor people to spend more time to deal with less honest business practices. If you think their free time is as “valuable” as anyone else’s then this is offensive.
I realize when I go out for a special event, like I did Friday night to see Harry Connick, Jr. play with the Boston Pops at Symphony Hall that I wasn’t going to quibble about costs.
However, after the non-optional 18% “gratuity”, they also had an additional “server” tip field. Ha, GFY, bitches!
At that point just increase the price of menu items and pay people what their worth instead of lying about the final bill
Sorry, that’s just for the developed world.
We need European pricing where the price is the price. I would go as far as making asking for a tip illegal too. Have restaurants put on their menu that prices include the tip. Raise minimum wage for restaurant workers.
And not just for restaurants, everything, from airline tickets to concert tickets, etc.
I think clear signage and message on the bill indicating “tipping is optional, service charges is included in the menu price” should suffice.
Making tipping illegal goes too far, but I am okay with implementing it for couple decades, in order to correct a bad habit.
Weave backed ourselves into a corner for tipping. Restaurants may be convinced to pay a livable wage. But they’re never going to pay the servers what they can actually make in tips.
I was about 5 years into IT, My girlfriend was waiting tables at Ruby Tuesday. Most days she made more than I did. And depending on how bad they ‘adjusted’ their tax claims …
That said, some days she did basically pay to work there.
I suspect if you ask the vast majority of wait staff if they would like to be paid and livable wage or continue a tip-based system they want to stay tip based.
I think that’s very dependent on age. When I was in my early twenties, an inconsistent gig with the potential for high tips was very appealing. When I got into my late twenties/early thirties I moved over to events and catering because they offered a high hourly wage with predictable(ish) hours. If the restaurants pay well enough they’ll be able to find people.
The real problem will be vacation towns. There are some places where most of the restaurants and bars close in the off-season. The staff will work their asses off through the spring and summer, then use their tips to live the rest of the year. For some of these towns, even if the restaurant staff wanted to pick up a job in the off-season, they’d need to drive two hours just to find a part-time gig at Target. I really want tipping to end, but I’m not sure what would happen to these places. The seasonal restaurants could pay more, but I’m not sure they could offer enough to subsidize their staff for half the year.
It’s also really hard work. Waiting tables at a busy restaurant was by far the most mentally exhausting job I’ve ever had.
Good for her, but arguably it’s not supposed to be a high paying job. A living wage, sure, but higher than a job that you presumably studied for and required relatively uncommon knowledge seems wrong.
So I guess the answer is no, we wouldn’t expect restaurants to work out how much people get paid in tips and match it, it would be a liveable wage and if the current workers don’t like it they would leave.
I don’t know that your girlfriend getting bankrolled is common across the industry either, tips rely on high traffic and customers with big pockets. Most wait staff don’t brag about how rich they are.
Only fees that are entirely optional — like leaving a tip for staff — can be left out of the posted price.
Wrong move. They should have outlawed tipping too. No more hiring for shit wages and leaving adequate compensation up to chance. Bump up the menu price and pay your staff an enticing salary.
Agreed. I hate tipping. Some tippers will hate for tipping to go away because they can use their charisma to make a lot of money. More power to them but tipping is just a way for these businesses to keep their labor low. Many other countries don’t have tipping and can still have restaurants. For some reason the US needs tipping to be able to have restaurants.
A restaurant in my area recently put up signs saying they pay their staff a living wage, raised prices, and forbaid tips. More like this, please.
Meanwhile, most places in London pay at least the minimum wage (not lower for waitstaff, but not necessarily living wage) and tack on an optional 12-20% service charge, and don’t give it to staff.
You have to determine if the service charge goes to staff, awkwardly refuse the service charge, and (optionally) tip your waitstaff in cash (and if you do, ask they split it with back of house)
The times we’ve done it seems to make the staff happy. Still a shit thing to do.
A few places in Seattle experimented with different ways to go tipping when the city raised the minimum wage across the board without making an exception for tipped wages. A few forbade tipping a few had a standardized tip percentage. A few had a surcharge added on. Many made it clear how they did it. Shitheads like Tom Douglas did not make it clear and added a 4% charge on the bill noting that it was a living wage fee. I don’t go to the ones who were shady about it. Largely it has all returned to standard typing. There are a few coffee shops like Seattle Coffee Works and an ice cream shop (Mollie Moon’s) that do not allow tips.
They won’t make nearly as much as they did with tipping. I expect either tipping to come back to that place or the servers to leave for somewhere better.
Or they could, you know, just pay the servers a fair wage.
Yeah, maybe they’ll make $50/he. And maybe cops will fly.
Raising wages is what business do when they don’t want their employees to quit. It’s not some mythical thing that never happens.
Agreed, but let’s not let perfect be the enemy of good here.
I’m not a California resident but once on a visit I ate at a place. Paid the bill. No tip. Left. The shopkeeper chased me on the street to catch up and ask why I didn’t tip, and wasn’t the food good, etc. Embarrassed, I was with a friend who is a resident… I told her yes it was fine. “Then why no tip?!” Internally: Because it’s a tip? I didnt get some kind of exceptional service there. If anything they left us alone really. So what was I tipping for exactly? why not just charge a different price, etc. Externally: “Oh I’m sorry. I didn’t know”
Yeah, but you know how the system works, so you intentionally stiffed someone out of their income. Regardless of if the system is correct or just it exists and you don’t get to just opt out without being a gigantic asshole.
Agreed, but overall a good move to address separate and much simpler issue of predatory pricing (for the customer)
Heading to mother’s day lunch right now, set menu for $89 per person. Except it’s a 10% surcharge on Sundays, the only day that mother’s day is, so that price isnt really true at all.
This in Aus which I’d normally argue has better common-sense policies such as requiring sales tax in the menu price
You don’t need to ban tipping. Several countries don’t have a tipping culture and that’s because the waiters are paid adequately for their work. Tipping is seen as a bonus after exceptionally good service.
The US should raise the minimum wage for restaurant workers and not make it the customer’s responsibility to make sure the waiter can pay their rent.Tipping culture has metastasized in the US. It won’t go away on its own.
Not disagreeing, just providing a counterpoint.
Take your basic non super fancy restaurant, dinner for two with appetizers, entrees, desserts, a two rounds of drinks will probably be $100ish. And that table of two will be there for an hour. Assuming server gets 20% tip average, that’s $20 for the table. An average server will have four tables in their sections. That means if the restaurant is full, they are making $80 an hour in tips. They will get to keep 60% to 80% of that, the rest going in a tip pool that benefits kitchen staff, bussers, barbacks, etc. But they’ll still be making pretty good money.
Of course if the restaurant is empty or they only have one or two tables with people seated, they are making less.
The problem comes that if you get rid of this system, there’s a lot of financial risk for the restaurant owner. Currently they don’t have to pay the server or the staff very much, most of their compensation comes from tips, meaning there is less risk to them keeping the restaurant fully staffed if it’s not going to be busy. If you pay all these people are constant hourly, now there is risk on the restaurant owner in terms of staffing. Bring on too many staff when it’s quiet and they will lose a bundle. Don’t bring on enough staff when it’s busy and those people don’t have a financial incentive to bust their ass. It also becomes solely their job to ensure quality, because the server that spends half the time on their phone in the back room is making the same money as the server who is attentive to their tables. It also means less risk for hiring an inexperienced server, because if the server does a bad job they just won’t make good tips.
All that said, I agree something has to change. I think perhaps one answer would be a law requiring that each restaurant put 15% of gross receipts into a virtual tip pool. That way they aren’t paying through the nose to staff and empty restaurant, there would be a line item on the check like ‘automatic gratuity paid the staff $whatever on this check, further tipping is optional’.
there’s a lot of financial risk for the restaurant owner
Risk for the business owner, what a concept. The workers aren’t there to defray risks for an owner, they’re doing a job. If the restaurant founder wants to push risk to their employees, make it a coop, then they can share in the profits as well as the risk.
if they don’t make enough tips to reach minimum wage, the employer still has to pay
Servers deserve a lot more than minimum wage. Servers would generally not accept anything close to minimum wage, especially when with tips they can be making $50 to $100 an hour on a busy night.
I am simply pointing out that it is difficult to compete with that.
How much do teachers make on a busy day, again?
Isn’t it fun how “the price should just be the price” makes you a filthy commie in 2024?
it’s always a struggle between freedom TO vs freedom FROM
Do it like in Europe. Prices are all inclusive, any kind of tip is just a thank you for outstanding service, and not a necessity so the waitress won’t starve.
It is a sales business with service, like buying clothes. Can you imagine having to tip the salesperson in a boutique?
Same in colombia. The price advertised is the price you pay. No need to calculate the tax in your head in the grocery store, just add everything and you’re golden.
It really depends on the country. France and Belgium, as you wrote. Germany, they expect a tip and look at you angry if you don’t. Italy, they add a service charge at the end that is nowhete advertised. Turkey, they invent a random price at the end, complaints only taken if you’re local. (I’m slightly exaggerating)
In Germany it’s typical to do so just to make the change easier, you might catch an angry glance by making them make small change.
Italy will list a coperto or servizio on the menu.
It’s common place in London to include a 12.5% service charge on the bill now. But it’s not mandatory. You can literally just be like “please remove the service charge”.
It’s kind of interesting because as an American it’s like I get to witness the invention of service charges in real time. If you hear employee complaints or warnings from people online they’ll say “the restaurant puts it into a common pool and only pays the employees a small portion of it” or “if you want to tip the staff, remove the charge and leave them cash” or “the business isn’t legally required to share any of the service charge with the employee”.
It’s like you get to see the UK go through all the bad phases of tipping culture before we get to the version we have in the US while everyone knows the winning move is to just not start down the tipping path in the first place.
Maybe I’m being overly cautious but the way the economies of the UK and Canada are incrementally becoming privatized, especially healthcare, is particularly disturbing. The populace must riot before it’s too late
Italy, they add a service charge at the end that is nowhete advertised.
It’s called the Pane & Coperto (or just Coperto Fee) and typically amounts to a cover charge to enter, regardless of what you order.
Honestly not the worst way to run a restaurant, given that every table costs some baseline amount of labor and resources to tend.
It should just be included in the price. Not hidden as well as they can. It is just used scam tourists by lowering base price but increasing coperto
I’d really love it if they did like some countries and added the sales tax(es) to the sticker price in stores too
There are a lot of things I wished they did similar to other countries such as VAT. Hiding all these fees seems deceptive from both the business and the govt sneaking in their taxes.
The restaurant owner arguments are all super weak as usual.
“Menu prices will rise!”
No shit, but everyone was already paying the prices but now you can’t just surprise patrons with the increase.
“There will be pullback. People will lose jobs and hours!”
Doubtful but even if true, that means that they knew they were lying to customers and clawing extra charges that they wouldn’t know about already.
“‘They’ are thinking restaurants will absorb the costs”
Not exactly but they will have to compete with pricing as it should be.
They’re just trying to get away with playing the same game Telcos have gotten away with for far too many decades.
That’s what pisses me off, if the consumer knows what they’ll actually have to pay they won’t buy.
They are arguing that they should be able to lie to the consumer and trick them. They think the consumer shouldn’t be informed to make a decision on what is right for them. And once again, they are putting the business before the customer.
Minnesota is currently working on a similar law to stop surcharges and just have a final price.
One step closer to the fucking common sense of the rest of the world where the price you see for something is the price you actually pay. Nobody cares about a number that’s mathematically related to the price they have to pay, just tell me.
Great, now do tipping next.
Article is about California, where tipped employees must be paid minimum wage same as everyone else
4oz smashed patty $17
Add bun $1
Add cheese $2-$4
Add $1: lettuce, tomato, onion
Add $3: grilled onion, any sauce
Add $7: sauteed onionz melted cheese, sauce +bechamel, fried egg, kimchi
Add $17: salmon
This might be a weird question but when people tip for a good service, what exactly is good service?
If I go to a restaurant I expect them to take my order, bring me the food and when I’m done bring me the check. That’s it. I want nothing else from them. Should I tip them for not spitting in my food or not stumbling and throwing it all over my clothes?
Friendly, prompt with explanations for delays and either a remedy or some form of alleviation of the disappointment, good recommendations/feedback on food, etc. a big one for me personally is coming over only when you notice something is needed (drink low, people looking around, etc )
I’ll tip if someone does those kinds of things as it’s going above the basics I normally require
Once again, most of that is bare minimum expectation.
It would be the bare minimum expectation in some idealized world, but in the real world, it isn’t.
If I go to a restaurant I expect them to take my order, bring me the food and when I’m done bring me the check. That’s it.
I’ve been to a Michelin Star restaurant where a pair of waiters were constantly hovering over your table to clean it and refill drinks and offer provide conversation.
The chef comes by and makes a presentation of every dish (the bananas foster was practically a magic act, the way they assembled the meal and then light it on fire). The staff practically wingman for you, if you’ve got a date. Everyone is beautiful and charming.
But that was something like $300/person just for the table, with 20% gratuity as a fixed fee on the final bill.
There are lots of restaurants that don’t charge through the nose for the meal but offer comparable service. Charming friendly waiters who weedle your favorite food and give excellent recommendations. Staff that sing or make clever jokes or entertain small children or share a cocktail with you at the table. I know a few high end restaurants in Houston that will try to pouch waiters from one another because they’re friends with particularly wealthy regulars.
You see less of that now (at least in the states) because individual waiters are expected to cover more tables, turnover is more important than relationship building, and the quality of food has taken a real nosedive as we replace professional chefs with meals made in microwaves.
Now a tip is much more like a Coperto - a cover charge for seating - than gratuity for exceptional service.
Oh wow that sounds awful. I already don’t like when they come check on me mid-meal about wether the food is good or do I need anything.
Maybe eating out isn’t for everyone…
Eating out in Korea is great.
You need more water? They either have a fridge of jugs, or a water dispenser.
Side dishes are help-yourself; you just go up and get them. Unlimited and free.
The person who makes the food is sometimes the person who brings it to you.
No tipping, no tax added to the price you see on the menu, and no stupid prices like $19.99 instead of $20.00.
And even after all that, the prices are still cheaper than the bare menu prices for me back in Canada.
As a mildly introverted person, this sounds like hell. I’d pay a tax to be left alone
A good waiter who earns his tip will have the skill to recognize that you want to be left alone, and will serve you quickly and efficiently and unobtrusively. Good waitstaff will quickly figure out what each patron needs in order to have an excellent dining experience, and then will deliver that.
For me it usually about timeliness (I don’t know if that’s a word but it makes sense to me) and if our drinks a nearing empty they ask if we would like another rather than having to spend five mins trying to flag some one done.
Simply doing the job quickly and professionally which for me makes my meal a little bit better. Also this is much more achievable for the staff if the restaurant has enough staff.
Good service is anything outside what you just said. Did you need to ask for any changes/ substitutions? Did you have an allergy they had to accommodate? Are you on a rush and they brought it out quickly for you? Are you splitting the bill? Are there children in your party? Did anyone leave a mess or did a drink spill? Were they extra helpful with recommendations? All these merit a tip. If they do exactly as you said and you were an easy customer, no tip needed (assuming you’re in a country where tipping isn’t customary)
Did you need to ask for any changes/ substitutions?
Waiter writes that down, forwards it to kitchen. That can be expected, imo. Kitchen doesn’t get your tip.
Did you have an allergy they had to accommodate?
Lol, “thank you for not killing me, here is a tip”. At least it can be expected to be informed about allergies. Regarding subsitutions, see above.
Should I tip them for not spitting in my food or not stumbling and throwing it all over my clothes?
In the US, yes. Tipping here is insane.
My tip heavily depends on how full my water glass is kept and how long my dishes sit in front of me before they’re cleared.
I don’t need chit chat or being flirted with, I just need my meal in a prompt and courteous manner, that’s worthy of 15-20% IMO.
Why is the price you put on a full water glass dependent on whether you got an expensive steak vs a cheaper pasta dish though? This is why percentages are so dumb.
So literally you say it’s okay to pay extra for a server to do their job, because the restaurant isn’t paying them enough?
Hells no. I’m all for prohibition on tipping, because it WILL be abused. Just pay servers a normal salary like everyone else
Only fees that are entirely optional — like leaving a tip for staff — can be left out of the posted price.
How do you say you’ve never worked as a server without saying you’ve never worked as a server?
Edit: I think there’s a misunderstanding. I’m commenting on describing tips as “entirely optional.” If you can’t afford to tip, don’t eat at a restaurant. Servers are paid below minimum wage because they receive tips.
Second edit: My bad. NY has a tip allowance, and that’s where I waited. I didn’t know it varied so greatly from state to state. California does, in fact, pay their servers $16 per hour minimum.
https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/minimum-wage-tipped-employees-by-state/
Restaurants should be forced to pay their workers a living wage, which is how it works in developed countries. And paying below minimum wage should be illegal.
Agreed. Each state differs on tip allowance. In NY, minimum wage is $15 per hour with a $5 tip allowance. That means employers can pay $10 per hour, expecting servers to make at least $5 per hour in tips. If it’s a slow morning of “coffee only paper readers,” it’s easy to come up short of minimum wage for some hours.
Yeah, and that’s a problem. Tip allowance shouldn’t be a thing. They should be paid a higher base wage. Yes, a lot of servers would dislike that because they make a lot of money in tips, and they often don’t report those tips when it comes to tax time. But that doesn’t mean that the system wouldn’t be improved by eliminating tipping and increasing wages, like they do in the rest of the world.
it’s such a fucking joke that they’re allowed to pay like $2/hr because they’ll make it up in tips. just because customers are nice doesn’t mean the employer should get off the hook like that. even the joke federal minimum wage is fuck all, that’s like 1-2 sides at a decent restaurant
“If it’s in the core price of the menu, there will be a pullback” in patrons’ spending, she told NPR shortly before the attorney general released the guidelines. "There are some people, I think, that are hoping that the restaurants will just absorb that cost, because we’ve seen people say, ‘Oh, it’s too expensive with the service charge.’ "
If you add bullshit charges that are not added into the price on the menu, I don’t return ever. So you may lose a couple patrons initially but they’ll be back once they understand that is the general price. You will also get me back since there is no more possibility of bullshit charges.
Oh, so you mean people won’t order your food if they know what the real price is? Well… fuck you
unless it’s previously posted clearly to see before I order, I’d just walk out and not pay, because that is otherwise called “fraud.”
They do post it but it is in small print on a random ass part of the menu. Not technically fraud but absolutely bullshit.
We should all take the attitude that if a fee is hidden in any way, including fine print, it is absolutely fraud. There should be no tolerance for businesses trying to trick their customers.
